• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

DCI Mouthpieces


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cheiden
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8910
Location: Orange County, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chilesaj2 wrote:
...I listened to all the kids on their current pieces and then had them all put in the Curry 3Cs and play and I'm telling you there was a huge positive difference in sound/intonation across. I even recorded both and listened back to them later and was confused. Actually before I experimented with that I took each one individually to a practice room and had them play some lower register/upper register stuff chromatic stuff, scales to listen for articulation, lip slurs and songs on both pieces and focused on if the sound/intonation/projection was better. At the end, they all wanted to play on the Curry...except one person who wanted to stay on it and eventually later said he liked it more than his other piece.

My takeaway from this is that clearly the Curry pieces have attributes that work for your kids and that Curry sizes other than the 3C. may be just as helpful. The Curry's I've tried played and sounded quite good. The only reason I've not gone that way is that I have yet to find a Curry rim size that I like.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rufflicks
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 641
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sir/Ma'am,

Thank you for the response. First of all I do not see DCI as the gold standard for music or music education. Nor do I see it as a haven for developing players.

(Examining this statement)
“nor...would I think it's a good idea for anyone to go up to a brass instructor in one of the top Drum Corps and tell him what he's doing is wrong because of different lip intrusions, we don't wear the same shoe analogies etc”.

1st of all different lip penetration is not an analogy it is a fact that has physical and acoustic effects; there is acoustic science involved. The analogy of the same shoe size is relevant. It is an over simplification so that it can be understood by a broad range of experience levels.
I am not sure if you are placing these “top” instructors in an esteemed position or if you feel that their “results” are proof and therefor justification of their methods. I subscribe to neither. I would not bother to have this conversation, I would walk away for 2 reasons. The young people that are in these groups are there voluntarily and it is not part of a school educational process.

Participating in DCI is not the same as enrolling in a public school music education program. If it ever became the same it would mean that music education stopped. DCI is a competition not education. Yes there are things you learn but DCI is built for competition. It is not a place for beginners to learn how to play, and advance players to expand music knowledge like theory, and repertoire. Music is not a competition it is an art. In school programs you can point to judging at state and regional music festivals as a competition. This is true however this is supposed to be an event to help both students and teachers learn how to have a better more musical performance. Using DCI as a standard practice reference is unfortunate. Replacing this with the methodology of a successful college trumpet studio would be a more challenging and appropriate benchmark.

It is not surprising to me the students all liked the Curry better than the Bach. I am not surprised they all sounded better too. The Curry is arguably a better 3C. There was very little individual perspective as they were all playing a Bach 3C. None of the students were used to something appreciably different so the change was not a deviation that would cause them to have a strong negative reaction. (So another analogy) They were all on bologna sandwiches and switched to bologna sandwiches with cheese. If they were on a variety of different lunches (pizza, Philly cheese steak and Hawaiian plate lunch) well there might have been some push back. In more topic specific terms they were all already regimented to 1 mouthpiece and no one in the section had a significantly different point of reference so the change was not radical. It is completely understandable the change was met with little to no resistance from the students.

You mention the bands standing or where they stack up in relation to other bands a couple of times. That and the DCI “top Drum Corps” modeling leads me to conclude that your position or purpose is to train the section for success judged by competition and comparison. This being your primary duty might leave you little time to drill down individually. It is fantastic some of your students have measurable success. I will submit it is not the mouthpiece uniformity that provides this success. I will also submit that it is possible some are not having the full level of success they might achieve because of this mouthpiece uniformity. In these cases you would need to do some discovery by trying some non 3c mouthpieces to ascertain the possibilities for improvement. You would need to spend some time individually to examine the most basic changes. 1.5, 3, 7 rim diameters and rim shape can change things for a player. Cup shape changes can be dramatic for many players. You have the opportunity to expand the overall awareness and knowledge of these young players. I hope you do take this opportunity on occasion.

Now as I understand your position and the original question being the real topic you would like input on, I will do my best to address this as it seems you are looking for this alone to be discussed. I think the CG mouthpieces are a bit of a departure from the middle of the road 3C. If you insist on uniformity please stay as center as possible. The rim and cup on a CG are not as dead center as a standard Bach style 3 rim and C cup. I know John Mohan feels they are in the reasonable range. It is my opinion they are on the outer limits of the reasonable range and should be avoided or offered only as an option. If you must have mouthpiece uniformity I highly recommend staying with the Curry 3c. You have proven success, use this as your go to.

I think it would be courageous of you to have a few options available to try:

Curry 1.5C, 3C, 7C

Yamaha 16C4 14C4 13C4

Any one of these 6 would be in a very acceptable range and not be cost prohibitive. It would not take long for you to hear a positive or negative effect for each option. This offers 3 different relative rim diameters and 2 rim shapes in each relative diameter. It also offers 2 different cup, bore and back-bore or (bottom) choices for each of the 3 relative rim diameters. My guess is that the majority of the section will gravitate to the Curry 3C but there will be those that sound better and choose one of the other options. This would be a responsible mature educational process.

Best, Jon
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips

Remember this is supposed to be fun.


Last edited by rufflicks on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Gottfried Reiche
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Nov 2013
Posts: 184

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Gottfried Reiche wrote:

It works okay in DCI (although I still disagree with it) because of the intense work, plus players all at a high level, etc. The environment is completely different than ANY HS marching band.


I have met many people from DCI's top 12 throughout the last several years and I've gotta state that the bold statement is just not accurate. There are many players at a high level in those groups, but there are just as many mediocre players hiding in the ranks as 3rd parts who can't play music that isn't the same thing rehearsed over and over again for several hours a day, over many weeks.


No, I definitely agree with you...I was just trying to be nice This isn't the point of my post though...my point is that the DCI environment is completely different than a HS band environment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rufflicks
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 641
Location: Mesa AZ

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One last thought. You are looking for more projection from a mouthpiece change? So, the section is not loud enough or projects enough? Compared to what? Other bands? The DCI model? How many awards they receive? Or???? Your students will be better served concentrating on other musical concepts than playing loud. Looking for this type of mouthpiece silver bullet is a trip down the rabbit hole. I would use extreme caution in this endeavor.

Teach fundamentals, music and fun and you will be a success by any measure. Being judged on your success by how loud your students can play and how many awards they win is using a very thin measuring stick.

Find what works best for them play music and have fun.

Best, Jon
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rufftips

Remember this is supposed to be fun.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JoseLindE4
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 791

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beyond the issue of uniform mouthpiece sizes, if the current mouthpieces are working well for players, why switch them based on their part?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
As ridiculous as it is to force an entire section to play one mouthpiece, ironically, I think in most cases it will still be an overall improvement, if the mouthpiece chosen is a reasonable one (Curry 3C. CG3, Bach 3C or Reeves 43C are all examples of what I mean by reasonable). At least this way you eliminate the radical mouthpieces, meaning in most cases the Schilke A4A, Shew Lead or Ingram type radically small and shallow mouthpieces some of the misinformed kids are trying to play on, as well as the radically large Bach 1C or bigger mouthpieces other kids are struggling to play on.

I'm not saying the radical type mouthpieces (large or small) aren't the best for some players, but these players are few and far between. When looking at a pasture of horses or zebras, they're probably horses...

That said, a competent school band director would have his or her players start out with a baseline, general sized, common sense mouthpiece but then work individually with each student (and each student's private teacher if he or she has one) to make sure that mouthpiece is right for each individual player. There's no reason to let a lackadaisical attitude cause the (relatively few) outliers to be left in the dust with mouthpieces that don't work for them.

Cheers,

John Mohan


Hi

I agree with John.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen this happen at both the middle and high school level (in the past, not where I teach lessons today). IMO, it's a ridiculous idea. I even had one very serious seventh grader who had such a difficult time with the mandated mouthpiece that he nearly quit.

If a kid is playing on an extreme size and/or some paperweight piece of junk that came with some ebay TSO, sure, putting him on a middle of the road quality piece is fine, but forcing (and I do mean forcing; telling every kid they HAVE to buy a certain mouthpiece) everyone to use the same mouthpiece, and doing it at the same time, is stupid. I've seen it happen, thankfully not too often, but I have seen it.

Regarding DCI: as someone said, and this is NOT intended as a slam of drum corps, which absolutely has had some terrific players come through it's ranks, DCI and drum corps in general is about competition first. If kids learn something along the way, great, but that's not the focus of drum corps, even though some of them at the DCI level are extremely good. And not just "higher faster louder", but GOOD.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval


Last edited by Brad361 on Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:26 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again

Now I have a moment, I'll add something.

I think that the Curry mouthpieces are a good quality mouthpiece, and an excellent choice.

I'd suggest the Curry C cups in either the 7, 3 or 1.5 diameter (I've left out the 5, because the modern Bach 5C at least (I'm not sure about the Mount Vernon 5C off which the Curry 5C is based) has a rim contour that may possibly suit less players), or even the 10.5, for a smaller player.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if this is a question of whether a Curry (or Bach, Schilke, Reeves, etc.) is a good quality mouthpiece, it's a question of expectations. Because of physical differences, differences in embouchures, etc., I don't believe that any two players will necessarily sound the same on the same equipment, nor will that equipment necessarily be a good choice. I had a high school student whose band director pushed him from a Yamaha mouthpiece to a Bach 3C, (along with the entire section!!), because the kid's tone was "too bright." (It wasn't, he just sounded like a TRUMPET, God forbid). Turned out that he had a "darker" (🙄) sound on the original Yamaha piece, which was larger and deeper than the 3C; the director had ASSUMED the 3C was larger. We did a "blind play test" with the director, I don't think he really liked the results, because he had been mistaken and looked a bit foolish (hey, it happens to everyone). This particular director, by the way, was in my opinion a very competent musician and teacher; he just made a human mistake in this case.

I don't think it's a question of what is a "good" mouthpiece at all, what works great for one guy might be terrible for another. I would not necessarily suggest what I use (GR) to someone else, it might be a terrible choice for THEM. Same goes for horns, those that I use work well for ME; someone else might absolutely hate them.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
As ridiculous as it is to force an entire section to play one mouthpiece, ironically, I think in most cases it will still be an overall improvement, if the mouthpiece chosen is a reasonable one (Curry 3C. CG3, Bach 3C or Reeves 43C are all examples of what I mean by reasonable). At least this way you eliminate the radical mouthpieces, meaning in most cases the Schilke A4A, Shew Lead or Ingram type radically small and shallow mouthpieces some of the misinformed kids are trying to play on, as well as the radically large Bach 1C or bigger mouthpieces other kids are struggling to play on.

I'm not saying the radical type mouthpieces (large or small) aren't the best for some players, but these players are few and far between. When looking at a pasture of horses or zebras, they're probably horses...

That said, a competent school band director would have his or her players start out with a baseline, general sized, common sense mouthpiece but then work individually with each student (and each student's private teacher if he or she has one) to make sure that mouthpiece is right for each individual player. There's no reason to let a lackadaisical attitude cause the (relatively few) outliers to be left in the dust with mouthpieces that don't work for them.

Cheers,

John Mohan


Hi

I agree with John.

All the best

Lou


You're a very smart person.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Trumpcyms1993
Veteran Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2012
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a lot people that have marched in Drum corps and have used various mouthpieces. Depending on the corps and the desired sound the staff wants is what decides the mouthpiece(s) the members use.
In almost every instance of any brass section the caption head will give suggestions based on which part you play or they'll give you guidelines on helping you select a mouthpiece to play. They will usually tell you which brand you can use because of sponsorships and what not. Within that brand they will let you pick a comfortable mouthpiece for your set up.
For example Corps that use warburton usually have a warburton rep come to a camp and "fit" members for mouthpieces with a staff member present that way if a member doesn't like the suggested mouthpieces they can be guided into finding one that will work with the rest of the section and is comfortable for the player.
Usually it is to avoid people bringing in off the wall mouthpieces. And some people believe using all the same brand of mouthpiece helps with uniformity of sound.

Drum corps is a great activity that offers an incredible wealth of knowledge in the areas of brass, percussion, and dance. It is a once in a lifetime experience and it teaches you things that no college classroom could ever teach you.
_________________
Yamaha ytr-8335RGM Xeno Bb
Yamaha ytr-8445G Xeno C
Carol Brass Flugelhorn 6200 GSS-SLB
Harrelson SWE trim kit
Monette BL2S3 XLT Prana
Monette B6S1 STC 1 Prana
Monette 6
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5461
Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
As ridiculous as it is to force an entire section to play one mouthpiece, ironically, I think in most cases it will still be an overall improvement, if the mouthpiece chosen is a reasonable one (Curry 3C. CG3, Bach 3C or Reeves 43C are all examples of what I mean by reasonable). At least this way you eliminate the radical mouthpieces, meaning in most cases the Schilke A4A, Shew Lead or Ingram type radically small and shallow mouthpieces some of the misinformed kids are trying to play on, as well as the radically large Bach 1C or bigger mouthpieces other kids are struggling to play on.

I'm not saying the radical type mouthpieces (large or small) aren't the best for some players, but these players are few and far between. When looking at a pasture of horses or zebras, they're probably horses...

That said, a competent school band director would have his or her players start out with a baseline, general sized, common sense mouthpiece but then work individually with each student (and each student's private teacher if he or she has one) to make sure that mouthpiece is right for each individual player. There's no reason to let a lackadaisical attitude cause the (relatively few) outliers to be left in the dust with mouthpieces that don't work for them.

Cheers,

John Mohan


Hi

I agree with John.

All the best

Lou


You're a very smart person.



lol

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Sugar coat it if you want, this is a band director abusing her power.


Possibly, or maybe it's a well intentioned band director who didn't know better.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Mouthpieces All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group