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bassguy
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 Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: Short or long shank for Jimbao rotary valve cornets |
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| I am thinking about getting a Jimbao rotary valve cornet. My flugelhorn mpc is a Yamaha 11f4 which suits me fine. The Yamaha 11C4 & 11E4 outhpueces seem appealing, but on eBay they come inky in short shank sizes. Of course, the eBay vendors aren't going to be able to inform me what type of shank is used. Anyone know? |
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GuidoCorona
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Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Hi Bassguy, what attracts you to a rotary valve cornet instead of a more typical piston cornet?
One of my concerns is that a rotary mechanism being relatively more complex, it is more delicate, and possibly more prone to problems on a very low cost instrument such as a Jin Bao rotary model.
Regards, G.
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Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
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Dale Proctor
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Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:52 am Post subject: |
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As long as the Jinbao accepts a standard-size cornet mouthpiece, the Yamaha ones should work fine. The taper on modern short and long shank cornet mouthpieces is the same.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi Bassguy, what attracts you to a rotary valve cornet instead of a more typical piston cornet?
One of my concerns is that a rotary mechanism being relatively more complex, it is more delicate, and possibly more prone to problems on a very low cost instrument such as a Jin Bao rotary model.
Regards, G. |
Largely the greater overall conicity (having a short lead pipe) & its appearance. |
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GuidoCorona
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Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Bassguy, if you decide to purchase it, please record a clip.... I would love to hear its sound.
I saw and held in my hands a rotary cornet only once.... Probably 1973 in Milan, at a birthday party. It belonged to the Dad of the birthday girl. He recently purchased it for pittens at a local flea-market. The valves and slides were nearly locked with congealed grease, so the cornet was not in operative condition. But the instrument was impressive, fully engraved with detailed oak leaves, and *uck!* "Mussolinean fasci bipenni". This pointed to a manufacturing date somewhere between 1925 and perhaps the early days of WW II. I do not know the manufacturer at all... Might have been an Orsi, or a German make, as many brass band instruments in Italy at that time were actually manufactured in Germany.
G.
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Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo |
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bassguy
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | Thank you Bassguy, if you decide to purchase it, please record a clip.... I would love to hear its sound.
I saw and held in my hands a rotary cornet only once.... Probably 1973 in Milan, at a birthday party. It belonged to the Dad of the birthday girl. He recently purchased it for pittens at a local flea-market. The valves and slides were nearly locked with congealed grease, so the cornet was not in operative condition. But the instrument was impressive, fully engraved with detailed oak leaves, and *uck!* "Mussolinean fasci bipenni". This pointed to a manufacturing date somewhere between 1925 and perhaps the early days of WW II. I do not know the manufacturer at all... Might have been an Orsi, or a German make, as many brass band instruments in Italy at that time were actually manufactured in Germany.
G. |
Hi Guido, did you ever check out those YouTube videos of some guy playing Fritz Kreisler & Mozart's Posthorn seranade? Same thing essentially. To repeat myself, the appearance of that rotary valve cornet is exotic, cute & compact, & doesn't look like a stout cornet or an elongated trumpet. Bad reviews of the Jumbao rotary valve pic's (thanks again Delano for the heads up) have discouraged me, though eBay does offer extended warranty coverage. Another eBay rotery valve cornet looks almost exactly like the jimbao cornet, but it's markedly more expensive with shipping.
At this point I'm going to get side tracked. You were looking for a flugelhorn mouthpiece that's markedly brighter than the Curry FL-Ms line. I am looking for something similar as a trumpet or cornet reference mouthpiece (meaning I don't necedsarily need or want to go to the trouble of buying & having a trumpet or cornet around.
As I wrote previously, when I first got the Hawk flugelhorn & had difficulties playing it, I borrowed my friends Holton trumpet, & using its 7C mouthpiece found that it was markedly easier to play: easier in the upper register; but particularly easier when slurring my way through the 3 registers. Using the trumpet & 7C mp I could see in the mirror that facial movement was far more economical. On the FH II could slur from muddle g to low c & see in the mirror my jaw really dropping to facilitate the slur, whereas on the trumpet, facial movement & jaw dropping was minimal in accomplishing the slotting.
At this point without having easy access to several brass insteuments, it's shear conjecture on my part to assume that the mourhpiece's relative depth & shallowness play a much greater role in the extent of facial movement, or jaw dropping, necessary to go from one register to the next, compared to the fatter, bigger overall size of the bore & bell flare. So in other words if I had a #7 size flugelhorn mouthpiece that was about as shallow as a trumpet mp, that might be as adequate for reference.purposes as owning another brass instrument.
I have inquired on this site about shallow FH mpcs & Bach always is the answer: although without measurements I'mrelyctant to purchase & have buyer's remorse (or pay exgorbitant shipping & restocking fees. Guido, in your search for a bright FH mpc you must have considered Bach haven't you? (Yeah the shank is different from a long, but still doable, right?)
Some observations about my progress:
I stipulated that I would be fairly happy to get my flugelhorn technique comparable to that of my childhood cornet technique after 3 years. Now I am about at the 2 year mark, but I'm convinced that the bigger horn with the deeper mouthpiece is inherently harder to play. (In spite if what Richard III says) And there have been major setbacks including the breakup of my ensemble & several broken ribs after a fall
Earlier I comained about my upper cheeks filling up with air, something that never happened years ago. Well years ago I had all my upper molars, now just the premolars are extant. The empty space where the molars were provide a path way for the air that can't always be cut off by the tongue (as it had been). Lots of energy is dissapated fighting that unweildy build up of air, & I have found that sometimes just letting the cheeks fill up & play Dizzy Gillespie style (for VERY short intervals) is better than fighting it. The cheeks filling is mistly problematic playing long phrases while ascending into the upper register (Louise Finch once joked to me that if it works for Dizzy....etc)
Pressure: playing the flugelhorn my sound & flexibility is optimal while fresh & using minimal pressure. It's amazing how little pressure I use on my teeth, & I think it's because the depth of the flugelhorn mouthpiece necessitates more of a type of puckering embouchure rather than pursed lips. In my 'Comeback Player's thread I broached this issue & one THF user strongly objected to that, claiming that the trumpet & flugelhorn embouchure should be the same, & if not I am doing something radically wrong. Maybe so, but the flugelhorn is a bit of a French horn/trumpet hybrid, & it seems that photos of people plating French look more like they are puckering. (Here Richard III can enlighten us). But it's here where having a trumpet or cornet to experiment with can lead to enlightenment: simply by playing the same passages on each instrument & comparing. Also about pressure, as I fatigue, increasing the pressure isn't entirely bad.
Short practice intervals a must. For a while I used exclusively used my Yamaha FH 11F4, which is kind of like training wheels for flugelhornists. Presumably its playing ease comes from its U shaped cup, however it's a fairly deep. It's actually what I wanted the Curry 7 FL-M to be, with the Yamaha being a little warmer with a deep resonance. Now that I'm a little stronger, I am experimenting more with my Curry 7 FL & the Wicks 4FL. I start off with the Wicks for 10 minutes. Later in the day use the Curry 7 FL for 15-20 minutes. Much later I finish with the Yamaha 11F4 for 20-30 minutes. I fight the temptation to play to fatigue as too little seems more productive than toi much |
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GuidoCorona
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Joined: 29 May 2014
Posts: 377
Location: Summerville, SC
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Bassguy, good hearing from you!
I have not found the videos that you are mentioning.... Have I missed URLs that you might have posted?
As I might havve mentioned, I have a variety of cornet mouthpieces shallower than the Curry FL-m for flugel.... All the way up to a Curry P, and a Stork 2E.
I also own a real flugel piece gem... The GR 66FL, which I really love.
Yet, for some reason, I still find the Curry 5Fl-m, to be my preferred flugel piece of the shallowish type.... Subtly more brilliant than the GR but retaining a slightly darker core at the bottom end. And definitely more balanced in tone than my various shallow cornet pieces when used on the 1525.
A very unique piece is the Kanstull FB.... Inner diameter of 16.50 mm, it has an almost perfectly conical bowl.... Noone talks about his little creature. If you want your flugel to approximate a French horn, this is a marvellous piece to try out.
I made a fascinating discovery a few weeks ago... Found a Griego CS FL on TH marketplace. This is the mouthpiece that comes standard with the Getzen 4895 Custom Reserve flugel. First time I saw this piece on TH... Price was excellent, so I could not resist.
The bowl is deep, but not spectacularly so... The bowl shape seems to approximate a NAWE curve, which is similar to the inner portion of a hyperbolic toroid. On the 1525 flugel, intonation is incredibly easy and spot on. The tone is similar to a Curry Fl, if a bit creamier and lighter.... Think of it as a Curry Fl hybridized with a bit of Wick... Very nice, but not totally unique.
As I am an unabashed fiddle-fuddler, I tried the CS FL on my CarolBrass CCR-7772 short cornet.... And here CS FL is astonishing.... The easiest intonation that I have ever experienced on a cornet, and a stupendous golden honaied tone, which can however be pushed towards some brilliance to generate upper harmonics... It really sings in all registers. Worth trying, if you can find one. A real music maker, IMO.
Yes BassGuy, I am in fact considering a Bach flugel piece.... as well as the Warburton FL-m.... But things might have to wait a little... My brassophilia nervosa is been kept under control by my wife... I suspect there might be no more pieces until Christmas, unless I can barter a couple of my trumpet pieces... A relatively uncommon ACB 3CS based on the ultra-heavy slug blank, and a lovely but more common Curry 5BC.
Saluti, Guido
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Cornet: Carolbrass CCR7772R-GSS
Euphoniums: Miraphone M5050. Wessex Festivo
Last edited by GuidoCorona on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bassguy
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Joined: 25 May 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| GuidoCorona wrote: | Hi Bassguy, good hearing from you!
I have not found the videos that you are mentioning.... Have I missed URLs that you might have posted?
As I might havve mentioned, I have a variety of cornet mouthpieces shallower than the Curry FL-m for flugel.... All the way up to a Curry P, and a Stork 2E.
I also own a real flugel piece gem... The GR 66FL, which I really love.
Yet, for some reason, I still find the Curry 5Fl-m, to be my preferred flugel piece of the shallowish type.... Subtly more brilliant than the GR but retaining a slightly darker core at the bottom end. And definitely more balanced in tone than my various shallow cornet pieces when used on the 1525.
A very unique piece is the Kanstull FB.... Inner diameter of 16.50 mm, it has an almost perfectly conical bowl.... Noone talks about his little creature. If you want your flugel to approximate a French horn, this is a marvellous piece to try out.
I made a fascinating discovery a few weeks ago... Found a Getzen CS FL on TH marketplace. This is the mouthpiece that comes standard with the Getzen 4895 Custom Reserve flugel. First time I saw this piece on TH... Price was excellent, so I could not resist.
The bowl is deep, but not spectacularly so... The bowl shape seems to approximate a NAWE curve, which is similar to the inner portion of a hyperbolic toroid. On the 1525 flugel, intonation is incredibly easy and spot on. The tone is similar to a Curry Fl, if a bit creamier and lighter.... Think of it as a Curry Fl hybridized with a bit of Wick... Very nice, but not totally unique.
As I am an unabashed fiddle-fuddler, I tried the CS FL on my CarolBrass CCR-7772 short cornet.... And here CS FL is astonishing.... The easiest intonation that I have ever experienced on a cornet, and a stupendous golden honaied tone, which can however be pushed towards some brilliance to generate upper harmonics... It really sings in all registers. Worth trying, if you can find one. A real music maker, IMO.
Yes BassGuy, I am in fact considering a Bach flugel piece.... as well as the Warburton FL-m.... But things might have to wait a little... My brassophilia nervosa is been kept under control by my wife... I suspect there might be no more pieces until Christmas, unless I can barter a couple of my trumpet pieces... A relatively uncommon ACB 3CS based on the ultra-heavy slug blank, and a lovely but more common Curry 5BC.
Saluti, Guido |
All I want is a very shallow flugelhorn mouthpiece that I'd comperable to a medium depth trumpet mouthpiece. This could save me the trouble of buying a cornet. (I am thinking of getting an old Conn Directors cornet in lieu of a pricier new rotary valve cornet).
The sound of the Curry FL is my best compromise using my particular flugelhorn, but the Yamaha works a little better for technique although doesn't slot well. The Curry FL-M never worked for me & it actually caused a little pain left of center. The Conn 7CFl also did.
Here is where specs & measurement are useful. Bach makes a shallow E depth flugelhorn mouthpiece, & if it is damn shallow it'll work. All I need is a reference point in terms of gauging range, flexibility & endurance. No pressing need to buy another brass instrument if I find a shslliw enough flugelhorn mouthpuece. Any suggestions? |
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