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dcjway Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2011 Posts: 118 Location: Wilmington, De
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Leaking air |
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Hi, I think this is the right place for this. Things are fine up to high C at that point air blows out through my lips on both sides of the mouthpiece. Am I doing something wrong or will this subside once my lips are stronger. Thanks |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7769 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Can you play up to this point much softer without the air leaking? |
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dcjway Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2011 Posts: 118 Location: Wilmington, De
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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yes I can, am I just over blowing? |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Something I do to focus the air forward, and not escape is to cover my whole top row or teeth, all the way back with my tongue.
Cover everywhere except the very front near your aperture.
This will help you focus and compress your air, it won't be able to escape out the sides of your mouth or lips if your tongue is blocking the air stream, and you'll find you only need a fraction of the air you once used to get a powerful sound. |
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dcjway Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2011 Posts: 118 Location: Wilmington, De
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Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, I'll give that a try tomorrow, it's my late here so I'm going to bed. I'll let you know how it works. |
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Gchalick Regular Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2016 Posts: 17
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:03 am Post subject: |
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You could try using a PETE from Warburton. That helps you to bring everything together and strengthen your chops. _________________ The battle is not man vs. the trumpet..... Its a battle between man and how far we can push us to make this wonderful thing we call music. -Vincent Chichowicz |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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I've been leaking a little air here and there since my college professor of music pointed it out to me in 1973 lol. He considered it a fault.
I consider it an irrelevant characteristic. As when I'm blowing a high C or better is almost the only time it happens. And at that point the leakage isn't audible. Not above the note sounding at the same time. As for any inefficiency perhaps related to such air loss?
Nah. As I practice many repetitions of the Clarke Technical Studies fairly often. Thus any loss of air capacity is also irrelevant.
Consider the electric powered air compressor which carpenters and builders use to shoot nails with on construction sites. Surely most if not all of them leak a little air and it's rare when we don't hear them spew a small portion of compressed air through their quick-release fittings. Regardless they still get the job done. Same is true for we trumpet players.
Besides the upper register of the trumpet appears difficult enough as it is for the great majority of all trumpet players. Thus a little air loss is a small price to pay for at least being able to blow a decent register. In fact it may even be a positive sign as it could be proof that the trumpet player isn't keeping his embouchure muscles too tight.
Almost without exception I keep hearing from good high note trumpet players that they strive to loosen up their chops as they ascend or play high notes. I know that I also advocate the same. The lips, particularly the vibrating portion of the upper lip absolutely must remain soft and pliable. Or it can not vibrate above the high C. So a little air loss should be seen as a positive condition. As the O/P is at least getting the note out without using excessive tightness in his chops. _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking air |
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dcjway wrote: | Hi, I think this is the right place for this. Things are fine up to high C at that point air blows out through my lips on both sides of the mouthpiece. Am I doing something wrong or will this subside once my lips are stronger. Thanks |
I don't know about both sides but I think leaking is pretty common. I was in a band with Danny Stiles - former player with Bill Watrous and the Merv Griffin band, I noticed he had a bit of a leak.
I have some leakage on one side - which I think is related to the fact that I have a crooked tooth on that side that allows a channel of air through along with lip shape that requires the tension be distributed a certain way. I'd prefer all the air be going through the horn but I can't seem to seal it completely off and still be fully functional. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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dcjway Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2011 Posts: 118 Location: Wilmington, De
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:42 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the feedback, the notes sound fine, and I try to not use too much pressure because when I do I pinch off the air flow. I use a Bach Mt Vernon 6C, I've tried many mouthpieces and find I like this the best, it seems to have a larger cup the my 3C yet I have a richer sound and more flexibility. I have a couple spares, would it help to open up the throat. |
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Benge.nut Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Mar 2017 Posts: 695
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:59 am Post subject: |
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dcjway wrote: | Thanks for the feedback, the notes sound fine, and I try to not use too much pressure because when I do I pinch off the air flow. I use a Bach Mt Vernon 6C, I've tried many mouthpieces and find I like this the best, it seems to have a larger cup the my 3C yet I have a richer sound and more flexibility. I have a couple spares, would it help to open up the throat. |
I'm sure you know, you can always take away brass, but never bring it back. If it were me, I'd only alter a vintage piece like a Mt Vernon as a last resort. It will take a lot f value away from resale efforts, for what may or probably not be a solution to a little leakage.
I've got a scar on my top lip and when I get tired a little air leaks, no biggie. More annoyance that having any factor on sound or playability.
Having a wider tongue channels the air a bit better for me, and I focus on that more when I get tired for a little extra "oomf" Since my tongue is wide and locks on my top back and side teeth, the air can ONLY go forward out the aperture, so nothing comes out the sides inside my mouth, or out of my mouth.
Have you ever tried that? |
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Jazzninja9 New Member
Joined: 15 May 2017 Posts: 5 Location: Seoul, South Korea
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I still have this issue occasionally. But it was much worse about 15 years back. I had air pockets and air leaked out. I focused on soft playing and worked on some "buccinator"(I believe was the term) muscle exercises out of a Leon merion book I got with his model jet tone I bought back in high school. It definitely did the trick. Simple exercise. Kinda like lip flexibility exercises really. _________________ American trumpet cat in Korea. |
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NicRG New Member
Joined: 26 Apr 2017 Posts: 3 Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:13 am Post subject: |
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High chops! _________________ NicRG |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | Having a wider tongue channels the air a bit better for me, and I focus on that more when I get tired for a little extra "oomf" Since my tongue is wide and locks on my top back and side teeth, the air can ONLY go forward out the aperture, so nothing comes out the sides inside my mouth, or out of my mouth.
Have you ever tried that? |
There's the answer.
Arching the tongue for higher notes so as to direct the air to the exact center of the vibrating aperture is the key to playing the upper register. When I play in the lower to mid register, my tongue is not channeling the air and the air pressure is the same throughout my mouth. If I sustain a tuning note and pinch my cheek and flap it around the tone is greatly effected (creating a ridiculous vibrato). If I am playing an F or G above High C and do the same with my cheek, the sound is not effected at all, because there is no air pressure in the side areas of my mouth - the airstream is being channeled by my arching tongue directly to the middle of my lips.
For years here, I've written about a "Coffee Stirrer" experiment I created to prove the above phenomena is happening. Here's a quote from one of my past posts about this:
John Mohan wrote: | You need to learn to properly arch your tongue up and forward as you ascend. Your tongue can create a channel and keep all the air pressure away from the corners of your mouth. Try this:
Say the word "sea". Now, place your tongue in the same position it was in when you pronounced the "s" part of "sea". Blow are out, "sssing" kind of like a snake. If you place your hand in front of that airstream as you blow, you'll notice a very thin, very powerful stream of air. If you do this while playing higher notes, all the air is directed to the part of your lips that need to vibrate (the tiny area in the center of your embouchure) and most importantly, none of the air pressure is therefore applied to the sides of your mouth or your corners.
Once you learn to properly incorporate correct tongue arch into your playing, you'll find that all thoughts and ideas concerning any supposed need to develop real strong "corners" are absolutely superfluous.
From an earlier post I made on the TH concerning proper tongue arch:
John Mohan wrote: | And concerning the playing of extremely high notes while the teeth are exposed through the sides of the mouth, if you search enough, you will find multiple posts by me on this Site where I write of Claude Gordon describing students he had that would play extremely high with their corners so relaxed that you could see their teeth [through the gap between their lips].
When the tongue is properly arched, it channels all the air directly to the area of vibration. I've written many times about my "coffee stirrer" experiment here on the TH. If I take a non-collapsible coffee stirrer (like a small, very stiff straw) and place it through the corner of my mouth into the area of the side of my mouth, and then play a lower note, air will leak out of the stirrer because my tongue is down low and the air pressure is even throughout the inside of my mouth. But if I play up into the High C and above range, at some point my tongue arches enough that it seals off the sides of my mouth and no more air leaks out, even though I am supplying tremendous pressure with my expiratory muscles.
I can play up high and open up the sides of my lips so that you can see through them - but it is not the natural position of my lips for me when I play up high. But for some players, it is natural to have a little gap there.
THIS is the key to not just great upper register command, but to great endurance. When you don't have to use your face and lip muscles to clamp down your corners, you don't get tired as quick.
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Once you learn to arch your tongue properly (meaning when you play higher notes, your tongue should move toward the position it's in when say the word "sea"), you'll find that the "need" to develop "tight corners" is a fantasy.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3aegrEZc_8 |
One last note:
A little leakage is no big deal. On that subject, my teacher Claude Gordon used to joke that the cleaning staff was probably still cleaning his spit off the walls of the CBS Recording Studios years later after his years there as the CBS Staff Orchestra's 1st Trumpet Player.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Benge.nut wrote: | Something I do to focus the air forward, and not escape is to cover my whole top row or teeth, all the way back with my tongue.
Cover everywhere except the very front near your aperture.
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I'm not getting what you're describing here. How do you cover your top teeth with your tongue and leave a hole to play through? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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slee New Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2017 Posts: 10
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Warburton PETE |
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Gchalick wrote: | You could try using a PETE from Warburton. That helps you to bring everything together and strengthen your chops. |
What is the proper way to use the PETE, i.e., how long, how much rest in between etc. ? |
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Russell Iser New Member
Joined: 17 May 2017 Posts: 5
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Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I find a slow, steady warm up helps... Plus, just playing in the range I feel comfortable in. Pushing too hard can be counter-productive, I find. |
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