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Robert P
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 Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| dstdenis wrote: | Moore had his students design mechanical lips that would play a trumpet. The mechanical lips did use air, not a mechanical vibrator. But they could configure the experiment so that compressed air was blown through the lips while clamped to a trumpet mouthpiece. No buzzing. When they attached a trumpet to this arrangement, a note began to play.
So what initiated the vibration, if the lips weren't already vibrating before the trumpet was attached? |
I've noticed that when buzzing a mp, cupping your hands and inserting the mp or even partially blocking the end of the mp with a finger can change what you have to do to create a buzz - my assumption is the change in resistance. But of course you can buzz a mp without a horn or just on a rim, or the lips without a mp or horn - no tube involved.
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | As i understand it the only reason you have to move any air at all is because that's how the buzz is generated, that the horn would work if the buzz could be generated without blowing air. |
Your understanding is not accurate.
The buzzing alone would not generate much sound.
The bore size is ONE of several thing that affect the acoustic impedance of the instrument. And it is an important variable.
In general (all other things being equal) the larger bore has less impedance. Therefore is "feels" to the player to have less resistance.
The sound transmits more readily and therefore more air flow is required to sustain the sound.
The transmitted sound has a certain amount of total power. That power is supplied by the flow AND the pressure of the air supplied by the player when playing a tone.
A lower impedance instrument requires relatively more air flow but less pressure. So it "feels" less resistive. (Because it is!)
The higher impedance instrument requires relatively less air flow but more pressure. (So it feels more resistive)
But both require the same power for the same loudness of tone (sound power).
Since power = flow x pressure, the same power can be achieved but with different flows and pressures. (And thereby, different resistances)
Most losses of power are due to flow losses. So the more resistive instrument limits these and is the more efficient set-up. However, that does not necessarily make it the more desirable to the player.
The player has to select the instrument (and impedance) that balances "freeness " vs efficiency. That is, their preference. |
Well, once again, you are completely wrong about everything.
(I'm joking - your post above is the best explanation I've ever read on this subject).
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Bflatman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with any statement that says the lips do not generate a standing wave but buzz because of the standing wave.
The lips buzz and that creates sound waves. This quickly becomes confusing because the lips are separated from the instrument by the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece contains a cup and the cup in conjunction with the lips forms a hermholz resonator.
The size and shape of the cup modifies and moderates the sound waves generated by the lip buzz. These sound waves enclosed by the mouthpiece cup form a system that modifies the lip buzz and the lips then buzz in sympathetic vibration with the sound waves in the cup.
The sound waves in the cup pass through the mouthpiece throat and into the instrument creating the standing wave in the instrument. The size and position of the standing wave then interacts with the various parts of the instrument and this interference generates resistance to the propagation of the waves from the mouthpiece and in turn is fed back to the lips and is felt by the player.
The player then finds his lip buzz is modified and the characteristics of the instrument and mouthpiece then affect the player.
It is a complex system that creates sympathetic waves and resonance and modifies the players technique. This is why different mouthpieces have different tonal characteristics and why the player feels resistance to playing which on the surface appears illogical. |
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| You can fundamentally disagree but science doesn't. Arthur Benade disagrees with you. I'm going to defer to him because he was an physicist and a musician. He has published scores of peer reviewed works disagreeing with you. Refer to the first article I posted. |
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JJMDestino
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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From the July 1973 Scientific Journal.
"A trumpet produces musical tones when the vibrations of the players lips interact with the standing waves of the instrument. These waves are generated when acoustic energy is sent back by the instruments bell."
Arthur Benade |
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Raggerty
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| If two things are in sympathetic vibration with one another then arguing about which causes the other to vibrate is possibly going to get you nowhere. |
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HERMOKIWI
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| JJMDestino wrote: | From the July 1973 Scientific Journal.
"A trumpet produces musical tones when the vibrations of the players lips interact with the standing waves of the instrument. These waves are generated when acoustic energy is sent back by the instruments bell."
Arthur Benade |
This is really interesting stuff.
Here's a song that doesn't say anything about lips buzzing:
THE MUSIC GOES ROUND AND ROUND
Tommy Dorsey
I blow through here
The music goes 'round and around
Whoa-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho
And it comes out here
I push the first valve down
The music goes down and around
Whoa-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho
And it comes out here
I push the middle valve down
The music goes down around below
Below, below, deedle-dee-ho-ho-ho
Listen to the jazz come out
I push the other valve down
The music goes 'round and around
Whoa-ho-ho-ho-ho-ho
And it comes out here
I think Tommy's got it!
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JJMDestino wrote: | From the July 1973 Scientific Journal.
"A trumpet produces musical tones when the vibrations of the players lips interact with the standing waves of the instrument. These waves are generated when acoustic energy is sent back by the instruments bell."
Arthur Benade |
The way I read this quote, it is citing the causative nature of the buzzing lips and the responsive acoustic interaction of the instrument via the standing wave which together produce tone. The "acoustic energy" returned by the bell has a source which is outside the instrument, otherwise the instrument would produce and project acoustic tone with no input from the player. This article cites that it is the buzzing lips that input that energy.
The buzzing is not considered "tone," but rather energy to initiate the acoustic wave inside the instrument. The standing wave is dependent on that energy input. The instrument standing wave interacts with this energy with it's pure acoustic qualities, plus the mechanical resonance of the instrument's materials to produce the trumpet "tone." In this way it can be said that the buzzing lips do not produce tone, the instrument does. But it is stated in your quote that it is the "interaction" of the standing wave and buzzing lips. They are interdependent.
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trompette229
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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There are some truths but also some errors in some of these statements IMHO. A question for JJMDestino...if you believe (or know) that the lips are only vibrating from the standing wave of the instrument, then how is it a player can free buzz the same pitch in the open air with no resonator or standing wave? Those same lips, while buzzing can then be placed against the mpce and horn and create the same pitch....seems like the buzz (acoustic energy) was being created independently from the horn/standing wave in this case. Yes it then can interact, but...
Regardless, none of this really matters. If Phil Smith or Claude Gordon say doing this create this and a player can recreate the sound they're looking for then that's all that really matters. Sound and music. |
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trompette229
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I would also add that the conclusions being reached in the video you posted by Mr. Harbaugh are his conclusions with his interpretation of what Benade said. Upon reviewing Benades material, I would disagree with many of those conclusions and I suppose yours as well. Also, there is more than one way to play a trumpet |
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cbtj51
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| trompette229 wrote: | | ... Also, there is more than one way to play a trumpet |
Yep!
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Tony Scodwell
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:48 am Post subject: Conn "Hot Lips Harry" |
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In the heyday of C.G. Conn during the Elkhart period, they were very much into the science of what makes wind (there's that word) instruments work. To eliminate variables from the player they invented a machine they called "Hot Lips Harry" which was a testing device with artificial lungs, mouth and lips. The use of "Harry" gave accurate and constant control in the production of continuous tones over any length of time. Let's see...lungs, mouth and lips connected to an instrument. Tell me again what exactly produces the sound?
Tony Scodwell
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Really interesting question. Daryl's answer is fascinating.
---
Regarding buzzing into the instrument, buzzing the lips is not at all like playing. Buzzing the mouthpiece is still problematic. I mean, consider it. You can play the trumpet for 3-8 hours day after day and it's not s problem.
Can you mouthpiece buzz that long everyday then after a week pick up the instrument and expect to play at your peak? Of course not. You'll have all sorts of problems and adjustments to work out. Because they're not the same.
Plus, it's more fun with the whole trumpet.. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| cbtj51 wrote: | | trompette229 wrote: | | ... Also, there is more than one way to play a trumpet |
Yep! |
Very true. There is the right way, and the various wrong ways.
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Really interesting question. Daryl's answer is fascinating.
---
Regarding buzzing into the instrument, buzzing the lips is not at all like playing. Buzzing the mouthpiece is still problematic. I mean, consider it. You can play the trumpet for 3-8 hours day after day and it's not s problem.
Can you mouthpiece buzz that long everyday then after a week pick up the instrument and expect to play at your peak? Of course not. You'll have all sorts of problems and adjustments to work out. Because they're not the same.
Plus, it's more fun with the whole trumpet.. |
Free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing are exercises, just like many others that don't completely relate to actual playing. In my case, free buzzing has helped in the following ways. I have followed some readily available video instructions from Pops McLaughlin, who reveals that the soft inner tissue of the lips produce a richer, more complex timbre when the lip buzz is centered there rather than on the tougher outer tissues.
To achieve that shift, free buzzing is helpful because one can feel where the buzzing occurs and learn how to adjust the lip muscles to achieve that result. It's then a simple matter of finding that feeling again while playing into the mouthpiece on the horn. Without the free buzzing exercise, the mouthpiece tended to lock me into the embouchure set I had been using.
By the way, my tone did indeed get better, richer and livelier immediately after finding this new technique. I have had the chance to sit with better players than me since then and, while they could play circles around me, my tone was better.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Hey Shofar,
Fair enough! Pops' buzzing is more like doing some pedal tones -- low and loose -- and unlikely to have the consequences that normal lip buzzing can.
As a way of reminding yourself how to form an embouchure, buzzing a few notes at the start of the day might work for you to get back to a familiar starting point. No problem. I still wouldn't say that buzzing like that has really anything to do with actually playing the trumpet, other than establishing a basic starting lip position. I also don't think a lot of benefits would be derived from buzzing melodies then playing them, unless it was being used to solve a specific problem, because adjusting the lips the way you have to when doing buzzing of any kind, is always going to be (or at least feel) fundamentally different then what happens when you play with the full resonance of the instrument. |
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Rod Haney
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Why does bore have any effect on freeness/openness of bl |
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| Robert P wrote: | I hear about certain horns being more open, taking more air to fill.....
Since all the air has to pass through the throat of the mp which is a fraction of the diameter of any horn, why would the size of the plumbing on the other side of the mp throat make any difference as far as how open/free-blowing an instrument is? |
Boy this thread certainly took a flyer. Even tho interesting.
I spent 2 days at ItG talking to Andy Taylor and Leigh McKinney at Eclipse and they both felt that the plumbing to the end of leadpipe was what influenced blow and that there was not a need to offer different bored thru the valves. Both felt this was the way to control the feel of the blow, not by the tubing to the bell.!
They both said that the bell throat and tail also had effect but LP was primary. They both use standard ml bores on their horns. I played their horns quite a bit and found what they said was correct in my case at least. I saw this even more on the Eclipse with the replaceable leadpipes. Totally changes the feel of the horn based on the lp. I ordered a Taylor Flumpet and a one of a kind Eclipse I will be posting about when done.
Anyway this is what 2 top builders said on changing blow. The fact they only do one casing and can get vastly different sounds and blow says a lot about their view.
Rod |
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brassmusician
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utkwhite@gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| In my experience, a large bore horn requires a more developed aperture. Smaller bore horns seem to be more forgiving. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| utkwhite@gmail.com wrote: | | In my experience, a large bore horn requires a more developed aperture. Smaller bore horns seem to be more forgiving. |
And secure breath support.
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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