Tounge Ache

Krafty934 · Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject:

Hey guys,
I've just been mouthpiece buzzing with the SC embouchre and after I was done, my tounge ached a little where it crosses over the bottom teeth to cushion the lower lip. Is this normal? Does it mean that I'm using the proper embouchre or does it mean I'm doing something wrong? Also, how much of the tounge should be cushioning the lower lip? I use more than just the tip of my tounge; is this okay? Sorry about all the questions, but I'm really excited! Thanks for all the help!

Kaushik

tptguy · Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:37 pm Post subject:

Kaushik, From your post, I'm having trouble figuring out just what you are trying to do. The lips are cushioned by their grip against the tongue, but the tongue itself doesn't act as a cushion. Perhaps let us know which text you are working from as well as which page or pages and we'll see if we can help more. Best regards, Kyle

Krafty934 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:57 am Post subject:

Kyle, I'm working on the Superchops book, in the beginning pages where it talks about embouchre, tounge placement, etc. I was wondering if your tounge starts aching after mouthpiece buzzing for a while with the SC way, does it mean that I am going in the right direction? Or does it mean that I'm doing something wrong? I hope that helps; could you please explain a little more about the tounge not cushioning the lips, but the lips gripping the tounge? I'm a little confused on that part. Thanks a lot for the help!

Kaushik

tptguy · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 7:03 am Post subject:

Kaushik, You'll need to be more specific. To my memory, Jerry never says anything about using the tongue as a cushion. Nor does he ever suggest or encourage mouthpiece buzzing. If you let us know just what quotes in those SC pages you are referring to we'll do our best to help clarify. Otherwise, perhaps reread those pages just in case you are misreading the instructions. Best regards, Kyle

Krafty934 · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:06 pm Post subject:

Kyle, sorry about the tongue cushioning the lip thing; I reread it more carefully and realized that only the tip of the tounge rests on the lower lip. I was reading the Tongue Placement section on pag. 8 when I first got confused; now that I reread it with more detail, I understand it better (correct me if I'm wrong, please!). The reason I was mouthpiece buzzing with the SC embouchre was because I was at home and my trumpet was at school; I really wanted to try out the SC method and found my old Bach 7C mouthpiece and started buzzing on it (I play a 3C now, btw!). Is mouthpiece buzzing with the SC embouchre bad? If it is, I want to stop doing it. I tried it at school today and I thought I sounded worse than I did with my old method (smile method); is this normal in the beginning? Does it take a while for the good things to set in and on average how long do you need to practice to start getting good results? I know that everybody is different, but I just want a guesstimate! Thanks a lot for the time and help so far; I really hope this works out well for me!

Kaushik

tptguy · Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject:

The reason mouthpiece buzzing is discouraged is that it restricts the lips ability to settle into the new formation and it allows old habits to keep returning. Rather than that, just buzz without the mouthpiece; that should give you very good progress.

Yes, everyone is different on how fast they will progress. But I think it fair to say that everyone will sound much better than a smile embouchure can offer after just 2 weeks of diligent practice. I sounded much better after one day! If you aren't sounding much better (more focused, centered, and vibrant sound with much improved intonation across your range) then something is not going right.

Keep at it!

Best regards, Kyle

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:42 am Post subject:

Hi Kaushik--I come from a smile or stretch embouchure background too. From that technique, the transition to TCE is pretty extreme. More or less, you're going to be doing things opposite to the way you've done it before. Any stretching of the top lip and excessive mouthpiece pressure will now work against you and stop the vibration. If you're like me, the old habits will be the limiting factor of your TCE progress. The more you can distance yourself from the old approach, the faster you will progress with TCE.

Jerome encourages spit buzzing, not simply buzzing the lips. There have been numerous discussions on this in the past so you might want to look back at previous posts to get up to speed on that. In quick summary, here's the difference between spit buzzing and buzzing the lips. As we've said before, spit buzzing is the sudden release of air which, it turn, creates a vibration. Remember that the air stream is blocked by the tongue against the top teeth and top lip and then suddenly released by the tongue in order to articulate. By contrast, Jerome discourages someone from blowing air to make the lips buzz. Concentrate more on spit buzzing between the tongue and top teeth/top lip and the rest should happen naturally.

The practice of spit buzzing is recommended by Jerome and is done without using a mouthpiece. He does also use his thumb and forefinger to form a small circle, which he places over his lips to simulate a mouthpiece cup. This greatly amplifies the sound and he can get a really loud spit buzz this way. He has told me that most of his students don't practice spit buzzing without the horn nearly enough. The reality is that you can feel the tongue position much more without the mouthpiece and horn. In the beginning, being able to feel what the tongue is doing is a great aid.

tptguy · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:09 am Post subject:

Goldenhorn, Thanks for the correction. Yes, when I said "buzz without the mouthpiece" I definitely meant ala Callet ala SC ala the spitbuzz, not just a basic lip buzz. I should have been more specific. Thanks GoldenKen for cleaning that up. - Kyle

germerv · Regular Member Joined: 24 Dec 2003 Posts: 85

Hey Kyle: <sound much better than a smile embouchure can offer after just 2 weeks of diligent practice. I sounded much better after one day!> I took my first lesson with Jerry in November, another just 3 weeks ago. I've had 3 phone lessons as well. I practise 1 - 2 hours daily using the TS book. I still haven't gotten it. I'm not a neophyte, just a comebacker. Whaasup?

Thanks, germerv

goldenhornplayer · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:27 am Post subject:

Hey Germerv--I thought I'd comment on your comment. In the beginning with Jerome, I spent over a year with little or no progress at all. When you aren't able to get the tongue positioned correctly and keep it there, you're just whistlin' Dixie, as they say. Once I learned to use the tongue correctly, then progress came more quickly and literally I could notice improvement weekly. Along the way, Jerome told me that if it was hard to play, then I was still doing it wrong. I can appreciate now what he was telling me then because when I do concentrate and play correctly it is very easy. You're on the right path by continuing to work with Jerome. Just follow his advice precisely and you will get through this tough initial period. Short practice periods seem to be best. Try 20 minute sessions 3 or 4 times a day if you can. Again, if you don't see regular progress, call Jerry to try to find out what you're doing wrong.

Krafty934 · Posted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:58 pm Post subject:

Thanks for all the replies so far; I can use all the help I can get! It seems my teacher has some experience with the SC method (he gave me the SC book!), so I will start the first steps with him I guess. He said he doesn't know a lot on this method but he's met Jerome Callet and talked about the SC method and everything! I hope this will turn out great!! Any more suggestions/hints, etc. would be appreciated! Thanks a lot!

Kaushik

tom turner · Posted: Sun Feb 29, 2004 10:31 am Post subject:

Hi Kaushik,

A 3C is a mighty big mouthpiece for serious SC playing by most people. It's big size will cause the chops to spread out and you'll lose your center compression.

A 3C (.660 rim ala a Warburton 4 series) is great for those who tighten corners and blow the center of their chops apart, for it gives them extra room for the soon-to-be swelling chops. HOWEVER . . . one with an efficient SC embouchure can downsize greatly without losing tone.

Also, most find the Bach rims to be very non-SC "friendly."

I use a Warburton 8M (equivalent to a Bach 12 with a .620 rim) but many use something a little larger like the following .630 sizes:

NorthernBrass 63 series
GR 63 series
DT-10
Warburton 6M

All those .630 rimmed mouthpieces I just listed will give you a mouthpiece that will help you progress with SC.

BTW, before I switched to SC . . . my mouthpiece was a super-deep (had to be special ordered that way) Warburton 2DD (equivalent to a Bach 1B). Sure, I can still play it . . . but WHY? With SC I'm getting the same results and rich tone on the tiny Warburton 8M that's more SC-friendly.

Hope this helps,

Tom