Olds Cornets; 2 Interesting Points

[JonathanM]

Greetings, All.

I just made a fun video of 3 Olds Cornets and a Conn 28A. I recently noticed a couple of points that can make a considerable playing difference with the Olds Super and the Olds Recording Cornets.

The Olds Super cornet is different from many of our trumpets and cornets in that it doesn't offer a 3rd slide pull (the standard Super cornet offered just a 1st slide pull from the factory), and that's a big downer for me. However, I recently noticed that Clay at CenTex Brass (and it's always a pleasure to deal with Clay - he's a great TH participant) had an Olds Super Cornet WITH a 3 slide pull (I point this out about 3 minutes into the vid below)! Some brilliant person had taken the lyre holder, put it back about an inch so that it attached to the end of the 3rd slide tuning, added an extra long pull - and voila; we have not only the nice 1st slide tuning aid - but a nice third slide tuning pull as well. For me - this is a big deal. The Olds Super Cornet is a very fun horn to play and it has a full, vibrant tone, but with the added intonation aid it's even finer. For me, this transforms the Super Cornet from a nice cornet to a FANTASTIC Cornet. And this is a small job for a decent brass tech - moving the lyer holder back an inch or so.

Also, when I got my Olds Super Cornet, I got my Olds Recording cornet out and noticed that the 1st slide from the Super Cornet ALSO fits onto my Olds Recording Cornet... So, I can have the 3rd slide trigger AND a first slide pull on my Recording cornet. The angle is a bit unusual, but I find it quite useable. Again, having both the 1st and 3rd slide intonation aids enables me to feel I can handle any note easily. Like my experience with the Super Cornet, this lifts my Recording Cornet into a new realm of use for me.

So, if there's anyone else out there that that really enjoys having a 1st AND 3rd slide pull on there horns, it's definitely possible with the Olds Super Cornet and the Olds Recording Cornet. And it's not that hard to achieve either.

I'll attach the video below where I'm playing and mentioning these things.


Link

_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[huntman10]

Not to brag, but I have been doing that third slide fix to Olds Supers and Studios for 20 years. And a similar fix on Specials and Reynolds cornets by grinding the lyre socket to fit the first slide ferrule, soldering it on, and getting the thumbsaddle and lapping the slide

I kept moving up to other Supers until I had a pair of 1947 trumpet and cornets. Maybe Clay got one of my old Supers

I wondered why it was not more of a "thing".
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[JonathanM]

[Rogerrr]

Love the sound of all those cornets.

Lyre holders are so useful. I had a soprano sax without a ring to attach the strap….not a problem…a couple parts from the hardware store and voila!!!
_________________
Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )

[JonathanM]

Thanks for the comment, Roger. I've always like an Olds Special cornet; I think they yield a very complex sound. But this time arouind, after listening to the vid, I'm more impressed with the Olds Super of the four. But the dark sound of the Recording and the versatility of the Conn 28A... I'm happy to have all four of them.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[Rogerrr]

You can never have too many trumpets

Funny, but I don't feel that way about saxophones....probably because in the several hundred dollar range you can't expect to get a good sax...but you can get a perfectly nice trumpet/cornet
_________________
Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )

[huntman10]

[Brassnose]

Of course the Olds Tricolor Specials are among the best looking horns there are (nooooo, I’m *absolutely not* looking at a Special trumpet right now ) but I dare to slightly stray off topic here with a question to JonathanM: did you ever have a chance to compare a Conn 28A and a 6A (two other horns I’m *absolutely not* looking at right now - my 6B is such a wonderful horn, I started wondering about the cornets). Is there a significant difference soundwise/playingwise between a 6A and a 28A?
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[JonathanM]

Huntman, and you other TH'ers, please pitch in. I've never had the two at the same time. In fact, I've not had a 6A in many years. Frankly, I believe I've had a couple of 6B's, but...Well, I'm 63 and my history isn't quite as sharp as it once was.

Still, YouTube never (or at least rarely) lies. Here's one of my first vids from 10 years ago. Who's the young(ish) guy doing that vid anyway?? And I've got a Conn 6A in hand. I much prefer my present vids with a sound system and (as you can no doubt tell) I do like the reverb it offers me. Most nice venues offer a fairly live sound, reverb enables this in a small room. While this vid is a bit 'dry' for my taste, it's linked below.

To me, the 28A seems more robust. While the 6A and 28A may share some basic specs, the 28A has additional metal(s?) electroplated and it seems capable of more diversity in tone. The 6A is no slouch though. I'll refer to the most excellent Conn Loyalist for more info...
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn6A1959image.html

And for the Conn 28A...
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn28A1958image.html

And hopefully some other TH'ers will contribute. Anyone with a 6A and a 28A on hand? That would be the easiest way to tell.

And my old video of a 6A...

Link

_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[RandyTX]

I have two olds Cornets, one a Super, the other a Recording, the former is from the 40s, the latter the early 50's. Both restored by Charlie, I never even thought about trying to swap 1st slides on the two of them, but now that you have mentioned this I'll have to check it out.

Very interesting option. Thanks for the thread, Jonathan.
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"Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."

[JonathanM]

It's funny, but the 1st slides are angled differently on my two - which are a bit newer than yours. I was actually trying to figure the bore size when I noticed that one leg actually fit, and then I couldn't let well enough alone and found that the whole slide fit. Well, happy day!

As yours are older (and I am a bit jealous), do let us know if your slides fit as well. And congrats on your horns, Randy. After Charlie has done his magic, I imagine you have some oustanding horns there; both in playing quality and in eye candy.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[Brassnose]

Thanks Jonathan, this is very much appreciated. One reason for asking is that I like my 6B very much but when I played a wide wrap Conn (36B or 38B I can’t remember) at Dillons a few years back I wasn’t impressed so much. It felt and sounded good (but so did other horns that day) but my 6B is just really something else. In my naïve experience with my 6B and the other horn from a few years back in my head, I’d expect the nickel plated ones to be „harder“ to play and maybe be more powerful?

Honestly, I’m rather looking to unload some stuff but the 6A looks cool (would make a nice pair with the 6B) and the fact that they have only been made for a few years is a little special, too. Imagine going to a gig „yeah, the horn is from 1959, they only built them for a few years …“ is kinda nice too, and not very common over here
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[JonathanM]

Brassnose, I've had minor experience with Connstellation trumpets, but I didn't seem to get along with them. The Connstellation cornet, no doubt because of its smaller entry area, seems much more manageable to me.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[Brassnose]

Thanks again. I’ll see what the future brings
_________________
2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier

[Rogerrr]

speaking of Connstellations....Jonathan...you are the reason I have a wonderful Conn 38A cornet
_________________
Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )

[huntman10]

Jonathon,

APOLOGIES FOR ANSWERING A "WHAT TIME IS IT" AND TELLING YOU HOW TO BUILD AN ENTIRE WATCH FACTORY!!!

Thanks for much for the “callout”. If any of you TH’ers have read much of my submissions about cornets, I am a zealot for what I call the “American style cornets”, since most current interest focuses exclusively on the British Brass Band (BBB) style of playing. The instruments you so beautifully demonstrated in your YouTube, IMHO demonstrate perfectly my outlook for that “American” style and its artistic application.

I am a more than a bit overwhelmed by the professionalism in your videos, since I lack much of your talent, quality of recording equipent (and knowledge), and a neat and presentable place to record, so I will have to address your inquiry with abstract impressions of the horns, rather than video evidence. My experience in video playing is entirely in recording a few horn demos on eBay (none are up now.) Maybe after the New Year (I am leaving in just a few more hours to pick up the grandsons and off to the trailer in the wilds of Eastern New Mexico (not the moutains, but the dull plains).

To me, from my side of playing, comparing Olds and Conn cornets is not entirely easy. Looking at the Conn cornets, Conn started with the its own bore size scale. The small bore was the 1 bore (0.438”), the “Medium Large Bore” was the 1 ½ bore (0.459”, like the Bach ML) and the larger bore was the 2 ½ bore (0.4844” which was nearly a small trombone bore). There is a full documentation with bore sizes from 0 bore (0.4063) through 12 bore (0.7813, pretty close to a 12 bore shotgun barrel, obviously for big tubas). But in my discussion of my experience with the Conns, the 1, 1 ½, and 2 ½ will suffice.

Anyone interested on more detail should look up the Conn Loyalist site online.

You mentioned the 38A cornet, the short (I would say standard non-shepherd crook cornet wrap, BBB folks all it a long wrap) cornet that premiered as the 37A (no trigger, yellow brass bell, very short production period) and 38A with Coprion bell and 1st trigger that was nickel plated in 1961, then morphed into a brass bell with nickel plate. The 38A had that cavernous 2 ½ bore, and smaller ball than the number 1 bore that the 6A, 10A, and 28A that preceded it.

I will also note that the very storied and ubiquitous Conn Victor 80A (and a number of variants) had the large 2 ½ bore,

I know there is a lot of discussion that bore size matters not at all (mostly by trumpet elitists ) but with most trumpets, the difference between the stock ML and L bore is no more that 0.003” (Bach ML vs L). A trumpet with a 0.470” is considered really large, giving a 0.011” difference. With these cornets, the 2 ½ to 1 bore is 5 times the difference between the more or less “regular” trumpet bore differences. I also realize that with the Conn’s, the smaller bore cornets we are discussing have big bells (as Jonathon mentioned), which balances out the tone, but I personally do feel a difference when comparing these cornets.

All of the Olds cornets in the 40’s through the closing of the Fullerton plant had 0.465” to 0.468” bores. Similarly, the Blessing Artist line cornets of that period were about the same bore, and to me, have a similar feel. And finally, I would say, to my experience, the Conn 2 ½ bore Conns “kinda feel” and respond more similarly to the Olds and Blessings (and the numerous Blessing stencil horns, that can be a real “sleeper” for someone wanting an entry cornet).

OK, now that is out of the way, to your actual question.

RE: Conn 6A (and 10A) vs 28A. My experience with the 6A was brief and long ago, but I will lump it with observations of several other horns I have had (I am 74 and started collecting, playing and selling horns from curiosity when I was about 14, believe it or not, after starting on an Olds Ambassador cornet when I was 11).

The 10A I had first was a Coprion bell and leadpipe model. Yes, it was not as robust as the 28A. But with the Coprion bell, and no nickel on the bell (the valveset was nickel) the tone was pretty lush. Curiously, I sold the 10A because I found a Connstellation (it was stamped on the bell as such) with Coprion bell and leadpipe, with NO NICKEL on the bell and leadpipe. As a hint to its curious history, it had a V scratched on at the end of the serial number, indicating it was a “factory second”. Did someone perhaps put it together and get it from the factory at a discount. I will never know. While it had a lush tone and felt more secure, like a Connstellation, it because the victim of helping my daughter with her divorce.

That said, I did come across a deal on the later Conn 10A “Artist” model. Exactly like the Coprion bell 10A I had before, but with updated “Victor” engraving. This one is not even on the Conn Loyalist list, but I have seen a reference somewhere. I have a LOT of cornets, this is going to be a “closet queen”. It is too pretty to sell, and plays so sweet, but it only comes up in my “rotation” in concert band (brass band has me stuck on Eb Soprano ONLY) every couple of years.

As far as the 1 ½ bore Conns, there are not many that are “interesting”. I have played the 38A (yes, CONN “recycled” the number) Victor smaller bore from 1935, and found it (for me at least) not as satisfying as the 80A. The “Concert Grand” models from the early 50’s do have followers, but I have not had a good specimen to try.

As far as the Olds line, your demonstration videos sound just like mine (only in my imagination, I assure you!) I used my tri-metal Special and Super for about 7 or 8 years regularly in a municipal band situation in a section of Bach and Getzen trumpets (and one Olds Super trumpet) and occasionally soloed and got lots of good comments (even from the CLARINET secition) on both the Olds' cornets tone (usually with either a 1 1/2C or for a slighter less edgy sound, a Bach 1B. My other Olds, BTW, have the old “wide” mouthpiece receivers.

Having said that, since I am already well on my way to novel length on this post, I would like to give a few “Honorable Mentions” (other than the ones listed above) for “sleepers” if anyone does want to step into a first cornet:
1. “Beginner” lines: The Olds Ambassador (get the standard mouthpiece recieiver), 15A (Brass Bell) and 17A (Coprion bell ++) Conn Director (with the tuning slide toward the bell and a “cleanout slide” below the third valve made from 1961 to 71), and Blessing and Getzen cornets. Reynolds Medalist and Emperor (nickel flair). Other brands can be good, but these have been my favorites. As with anything CONDITION BEATS EVERYTHING ELSE!

2. “Step Up” Lines: Getzen Capri (a REAL unappreciated gem), Conn 2 ½ bores (76A “Connquest” {really short Olds Recording styled wrap, tuning slide after the third slide}, Conn Victor 5A (brass) and 9A (Coprion) short wrap). Lets not forget the Victor 80A.

There are likley a LOT of others. I have played a number of Holtons. But I can’t remember them all.

Anyway, apologies for writing so much, and even more so, for leaving out your faves!!
_________________
huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

[JonathanM]

^^^^^ F A N T A S T I C!!!!! Thank you very much; lots of good stuff here.
_________________
Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

[JonathanM]

[Rogerrr]

if I can play it anyone can
_________________
Sax player learning cornet & trumpet...and occasionally a little bit of trombone.
( so don't confuse me with an experienced player )

[Man Of Constant Sorrow]

@ huntman10

Per your post, I have/had many of the cornets you mention. (HAD, more-so than HAVE).

I HAD a 10A Artist, also. Same time-frame while having a couple 28A's.
Guess what?
Sold the 10A Artist, and a later 28A (the one with the smooth nickel (looks like aluminum?) valve-caps.

I kept ... and, still play regularly ... the early (s/n 551xxx) 1st year production (?) 28A (has the early valve caps, with the serrated edging. Much wear-through the nickel-plate about the hand-hold areas, including down to Coprion at the mouthpipe and the bell.
LOVE that horn. It's a KEEPER !!

BTW -- I have switched-out valve-slides from a silver Conn 22B, over onto the 28A. Perfect fit.
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Sub-Optimal Hillbilly Jazz