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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1037 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Kinda agree there. Making a player change when they’re not on board with it can be frustrating for personal relations.
The old adage ‘lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink’ applies here. Rather than forcing gear changes, talk with the player. Make them understand what is needed, and once they’re on board with the idea, offer broad suggestions as to what they can try to achieve that (i.e. shallower mouthpiece rather than ‘use this specific mouthpiece’). Starting with asking them to listen to specific music to get more affinity with the genre seems like a good first step. Maybe make a few recordings to highlight what the problem is (the player may not be aware they’re not being heard by the audience for example).
As Trumpjerele wrote, if said player can play lead with that mouthpiece then they’re quite skilled and experienced. Such players may not respond well to someone telling them what gear they should use (and rightfully so: if my conductor pulled such a stunt I’d politely tell them to go stuff it). Pressing the issue may just lead to escalation.
Making the changes with the player instead of for them will help building mutual trust and respect. In the long term it’ll be far more constructive.
And accept that it may take them some time to adjust (physically and mentally). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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Brassnose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 2120 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Just thought of: can you record the band/section to demonstrate the issue? _________________ 2019 Martin Schmidt eXcellence
1992 Bach 43GH/43
1989 Kühnl & Hoyer Model 15 flugel
1980/2023 Custom Blessing Scholastic C 😎
1977 Conn 6B
1951 Buescher 400 Lightweight
AR Resonance, Frate, Klier |
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LadFree Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2022 Posts: 59 Location: NY
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 3:49 am Post subject: |
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A Bach 1 diameter and a Bach tpt 72 bell is in most cases, a very big combination that would not work out for staying in lead trumpet territory
for a long period of time..Again, I said in most cases.
A good way to approach this, would be for the player to keep playing his mouthpiece, but try a more "Friendly" trumpet. In my case, I play a large diameter mouthpiece, but now play an Olds Super,where the bell flairs much later then a Bach 72, and I feel like I have something to blow against. And I love the sound playing lead, and in the section too..Since you said he wasnt into dropping $`s, ask if anybody in the section has a more responsive horn they could bring to rehearsal.(Olds,Selmer,Shilke B1,Benge,etc)
I played a Bach 43 most of my career, and as I find myself at 70 years old, the Olds is really a game changer in my case.
Asking the guy to change mouthpieces?..I dont think thats a great idea. |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Okay, this guy is cheap. No Warburtons, no custom this or that and the Yamaha is way too small.
I had a talk with him today and brought up why he is using the extra weight on his mouthpiece. He told me he had no idea and wouldn't talk about making any changes.
Let's let this go for now. Thanks. |
Is this a for fun band or do you actually make something beyond gas money? Can he be replaced? Or is that not an option for social reasons or because there just isn't someone else to replace him with? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | As Trumpjerele wrote, if said player can play lead with that mouthpiece then they’re quite skilled and experienced. Such players may not respond well to someone telling them what gear they should use (and rightfully so: if my conductor pulled such a stunt I’d politely tell them to go stuff it). Pressing the issue may just lead to escalation. |
Quote: | A good way to approach this, would be for the player to keep playing his mouthpiece, but try a more "Friendly" trumpet. In my case, I play a large diameter mouthpiece, but now play an Olds Super,where the bell flairs much later then a Bach 72, and I feel like I have something to blow against. And I love the sound playing lead, and in the section too..Since you said he wasnt into dropping $`s, ask if anybody in the section has a more responsive horn they could bring to rehearsal.(Olds,Selmer,Shilke B1,Benge,etc) |
In this case the ego is larger than the ability. As is common, players think their trumpet being a Bach is the end all and this player would never switch. The rest of the section is two Bach 37's and me on a Conn 22B. None of them would ever entertain trying anything else.
The lead player took lessons with a local well known lead player who immediately required the switch to the Schilke 14a4a. I would love to hear that combination even though I very much dislike the sound of the Schilke. Despite that, I'm wondering if I could get him to play it a bit for me to listen to. Maybe that would open the door to something else. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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chase1973 Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2018 Posts: 138 Location: Valdosta
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:26 am Post subject: |
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The ideal lead sound should be big, bright and edgy. Ned a sample of a sound to imitate? Maynard's sound on the 1961 roulette recording of "Ole" THAT's THE sound to copy. You're not going to get THAT sound on a Bach 1 MPC |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Is this a for fun band or do you actually make something beyond gas money? Can he be replaced? Or is that not an option for social reasons or because there just isn't someone else to replace him with? |
We make money. Every gig is a paid gig. In our area there are four big bands competing for players. Trumpet players and trombone players are the hardest to replace. And this guy is pretty entrenched in the band.
In a couple of months he's on vacation and his sub is the best lead guy in the area. Should be interesting. I'll record that for sure. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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Halflip Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1991 Location: WI
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | In a couple of months he's on vacation and his sub is the best lead guy in the area. Should be interesting. I'll record that for sure. |
If his sub is the best lead guy in the area, couldn't you just switch them? Or have the sub challenge the primary for the lead chair? _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run" |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3367 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | Thanks. I should add that when he steps on the gas, he can cut through and really be heard. But at anything less than that, he disappears. ... |
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Has that been mentioned to him?
Does he agree? Acknowledge that it is due to his playing?
Has he been requested to be a little more assertive?
Is there a director giving him the 'more' signal? _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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Halflip wrote: | Richard III wrote: | In a couple of months he's on vacation and his sub is the best lead guy in the area. Should be interesting. I'll record that for sure. |
If his sub is the best lead guy in the area, couldn't you just switch them? Or have the sub challenge the primary for the lead chair? |
The sub has plenty to do and doesn't really have time for more. His primary band practices the same night as we do every two weeks. So he's fitting us in. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Richard III wrote: | Thanks. I should add that when he steps on the gas, he can cut through and really be heard. But at anything less than that, he disappears. ... |
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Has that been mentioned to him?
Does he agree? Acknowledge that it is due to his playing?
Has he been requested to be a little more assertive?
Is there a director giving him the 'more' signal? |
He's had a tendency to be all loud all the time in the past. We finally got him to back off and that's when I realized he disappeared. And I'm the director now. So my requests and guidance are new to him. We will be talking in the coming weeks. My goal with big band players is to get a characteristic bright sound whether they are playing loud or soft. I expect to be able to hear everyone even when the are backing off.
We have more issues than just this one guy. Brass players have been hiding behind their stands for a long time. Almost like they are trying to not be noticed. Trumpet solos are pretty bad with the same attitude. Whatever happened to trumpet players who want to be stars?
One song we did recently had three trumpet solos, mine was last. So it was quiet mumble, followed by quiet mumble, followed by "Hey! Here I am!" _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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chase1973 wrote: | The ideal lead sound should be big, bright and edgy. Ned a sample of a sound to imitate? Maynard's sound on the 1961 roulette recording of "Ole" THAT's THE sound to copy. You're not going to get THAT sound on a Bach 1 MPC |
I agree. That is a great sound to get on the trumpet. So, who knows what mouthpiece Maynard was using on that recording? _________________ Too Soon Oldt, Too Late Schmart |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3367 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | ... We have more issues than just this one guy. Brass players have been hiding behind their stands for a long time. Almost like they are trying to not be noticed. ... |
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I think a large aspect of managing a group such as that is to recognize that each player has their own reasons for wanting to be in the group.
And of course, everyone has their own personality and quirks.
The key is to discover how to motivate people to perhaps try harder, or to break out of their comfort zone to derive more personal satisfaction and improve the group. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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peanuts56 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2021 Posts: 242
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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chase1973 wrote: | The ideal lead sound should be big, bright and edgy. Ned a sample of a sound to imitate? Maynard's sound on the 1961 roulette recording of "Ole" THAT's THE sound to copy. You're not going to get THAT sound on a Bach 1 MPC |
Depends on the chart IMHO. My favorite lead player is Jeff Kievet. Jeff's sound is rather compact and not over the top the way someone like Lin Biviano sounds. I loved Lin's playing with Maynard and Basie. Jeff is also ridiculously accurate. I heard him this past December at a show he was playing in. At intermission I happened to be backstage to meet a friend filming the performance. I looked over near a corner. Jeff was sitting there practicing with a mute in. Talk about dedication.
Snooky Young was considered a great lead player. His sound wasn't over the top and edgy. |
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stuartissimo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2021 Posts: 1037 Location: Europe
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Posted: Sun Mar 17, 2024 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | I think a large aspect of managing a group such as that is to recognize that each player has their own reasons for wanting to be in the group.
And of course, everyone has their own personality and quirks.
The key is to discover how to motivate people to perhaps try harder, or to break out of their comfort zone to derive more personal satisfaction and improve the group. |
Indeed. And maybe manage your own expectations as well: you may end up having to work with what you got, instead of getting what you want, despite your best efforts. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mpc |
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LadFree Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2022 Posts: 59 Location: NY
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Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 2:30 am Post subject: |
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To Richard 111; A really great way to show your lead player what you expect is to play a lead chart yourself in one of your rehearsals and have him listen. After all, your all about "Hey! Here I am!" as you stated. |
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TJTS Regular Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2023 Posts: 90 Location: Indianapolis, IN
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Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Have him listen to the great big band lead players and truly hear their sound and their style.
Rasey, Glow, Childers, Porcino, Chase, Brisbois, and the list goes on.
The big band I am in has about 300 charts are so. Highest I have seen is a double G. Playing lead is way more about style than atmospheric range.
This is assuming you are playing Basie, Kenton, Ellington, Herman, Shaw, Miller, etc. _________________ Michael | Owner
www.thejazztrumpetstore.com
Vintage Professional Trumpet Store |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9151 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:51 am Post subject: Re: Big Band Lead Sound |
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Richard III wrote: | Now keep in mind, we have to sell him on the concept and it can't be too extreme. Thanks. |
Just tell him that the hot blonde in the first row digs guys who play a Yamaha Shew Lead. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
"Well, even if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn't play like Wynton." Chet Baker
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Selmer K-Modified Light Trumpet (for sale)
Benge 3X Cornet |
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hose Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 1854 Location: Winter Garden, FL
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Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Big Band Lead Sound |
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kehaulani wrote: | Richard III wrote: | Now keep in mind, we have to sell him on the concept and it can't be too extreme. Thanks. |
Just tell him that the hot blonde in the first row digs guys who play a Yamaha Shew Lead. |
More truth than fiction to that approach. _________________ Dave Wisner
Picketts
Yamaha 6335RC
Yamaha 8335RS
Lawler Flugel
Kanstul cornet |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2619
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Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Big Band Lead Sound |
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kehaulani wrote: | Richard III wrote: | Now keep in mind, we have to sell him on the concept and it can't be too extreme. Thanks. |
Just tell him that the hot blonde in the first row digs guys who play a Yamaha Shew Lead. |
_________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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