Brandenburg Concerto #2

[_TrumpeT_]

Why is there a theory that it was meant to be played an octave lower on a natural horn? What is the proof that disproves this theory? Just curious...

[david johnson]

do all the notes exist an octave lower on a natural axe?

dj

[Clarino]

Probably not.


The natural trumpet being considerably longer than a valved trumpet is able to play notes much lower, but if one were to try to play the piece an octave lower then there would be notes missing. It would be akin to trying to play it at the high octave on your regular Bb without using valves. Yes, there are more notes than in the lower octave, but not all of them.


My guess would be that whoever told you that probably meant that it was played on a natural trumpet which was capable of playing an octave lower than modern trumpets.

[robert_white]

The argument that Bach might have been confused as to what he was writing for, or simply had his terminology mixed up is an old one. However, I think it's been pretty much thrown out by scholars.

If I understand correctly, the confusion stems from both notational practices in Northern Germany through the early 18th century (in which horn parts and often trumpet parts were notated an octave lower to keep everything "in the staff"), and the fact that Reiche (who supposedly played the B-burg in Leipzig when Bach showed up) could have - as a "Stadtfeifer" and not a guild trumpeter - played either instrument.

As to the question of instrument length - I'm pretty sure a baroque horn in F is roughly as long as a modern horn in F, and thus HALF as long as a baroque trumpet in F. Thus, it would indeed sound an octave lower if played on a horn back then.

Nonsense Eliminator and I took Brass Lit. together, so maybe he remembers more than I do? Sandals?...

[tomba51]

[mark schorah]

I think peolle forget that at the time it wouldn't be as high as it is now. I had a big chat with a college student who wrote an essay on it, its pretty completcated something to do with baroque pitching being a semitone lower, and the woodwind at the time was again pitched even lower so it would of actually been played on a D trumpet. Sorry i cant remeber it all but this lad investigated it deeply


mark

[robert_white]

[nini]

greetings from Belgium

There is a score (known as the Prentzl part ) which says " cormo da caccia" for the trumpet voice, however the autograph sent by Bach to the Marggrave of Brandenburg clearly says " Tromba".

Notice that there is a score from 1792 which even says " traverso " for the trumpet part (on can assume they had no trumpeter able to play this, at that time the art of clarinblasen was almost lost), so they took a flute player to do the job.

other question : it is difficult to assume that the Brandenburg was written for Reiche since Bach wrote it during his stay at the court of Koethen , thus before he went to Leipzig; after that it is still difficult to imagine that Bach would have asked the marggrave of Brandenburg to return the concerti so he could let the n° 2 performed.

It could be that the n° 2 was composed for Caspar Wilcke (the father of Anna Magdalena Bach) who was the best trumpeter at the court of Weissenfels ( Reiche, Ulrich Ruhe - the successor of Reiche in Leipzig - both came from Weissenfels ; as did Altenburg - and his father -).

Notice that Altenburg speaks in his book about a so called " french trumpet " pitched in F

Nini

[bunny]

The valve and nautral horn in F both have the same length of tubing. Modern F horns are not "half-length" instruments- modern valve trumpets are. Thus the natural horn in F could play all the notes in the score an octave down.
Pitch in the baroque era was lower, usually A was around 415-420.
An examination of the part writing in this piece does make a bit of a case for the proposition that Bach conceived this part an octave lower than we now hear it played.

[jpetrocelli]

Completely off topic, but if anyone is interested, I've transcribed Brandenburg 2 and made a nice clean copy of it for Bb Pic and put it on the web.

http://trumpet.joemegan.com
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Joe Petrocelli

[Nonsense Eliminator]

There are two main reasons for the discussion about the instrument and/or octave Bach intended. First, as nini mentioned, there are copies of the score that say "corno da caccia" -- although my recollection is that on at least one of them, what it says is "tromba o vero corno da caccia," that is, "trumpet or else horn." Second is the key. F is not a typical key for Bach's trumpet parts, or for baroque trumpet parts in general. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others, although I'm sure there must be a couple. However, F is a very typical key for horn.

From a musical standpoint, I'm not sure that I buy the claim that the piece is intended for horn. The first Brandenburg Concerto is very idiomatically horn-like -- it contains hunting motifs, and even a reference to an actual horn signal. The second isn't. I disagree with bunny -- I think that the part-writing suggests the upper octave, because to me what is characteristic about the sound of the piece is the four solo voices all in the same register. It seems to be that having one voice an octave below the others would be out of place -- but it's pretty hard to listen objectively after hearing it so many times in the upper octave.

[trumpetmike]

NE makes some good points, as ever.

I have a recording where it is done on horn - it just doesn't work. The sound of the horn gets swamped in the tone of the strings. When it is played at the more familiar trumpet pitch, it interacts with the other soloists much more musically.

I have seen a couple of other baroque pieces that use Trumpet in F, but I can't recall them immediately - I will do some thinking and see if anything comes to mind (Endler rings a bell, but I can't make any promises).

[dave belknap]

Joe Petrocelli:

Nice transcription. I know that the majority of us have played this work on F trumpets for years. However, there are a lot more A/Bb pics in circulation these days and for the players fortunate enough to have one of Zig Kanstul's G, A, Bb signature models, your transcription will make life much easier for the player(s). I mention Zig's fine horn because it has at least an equal breadth of sound when compared to any of the F trumpets that I have owned/used, hence his instrument in my humble opinion, when set up in it's Bb mode, is purpose built for this particular work.

Cheers,

Dave Belknap
Trumpet
Local #47 American Federation of Musicians
Hollywood, CA

[jpetrocelli]

Thanks Dave.

How many people in here actually play Brandenburg on F trumpet? The few times that I've performed it, or seen it performed it was done on Bb pic. (I play a P5-4.) I've contemplated playing it on F, find that I generally blend so well with the winds playing pic, so I just do that. Besides, I find the ease of execution on the Bb quite nice.
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Joe Petrocelli

[s11141827]

A Modern F Trumpet would allow you to play the part as written.
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I play various instruments & Sing.