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Dayton
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Joined: 24 Mar 2013
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Location: USA
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 Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Thanks Dayton. ok. I will try lowering my practice time. I will likely try most recommendations to see what works. I can say though that I am not tired when I stop. at least I don't feel tired, my chops are usually working good(except for the swelling), and my problem might be I have an addiction to trumpet. The discipline for me is in putting the horn down, not picking it up. especially if I get on a roll, and im sounding good. I'll do a compromise and try 30 mins a day. but the warm up alone is maybe 10 -15 mins? doesn't leave much time for scales studies and repertoire??? |
Let's imagine that the problem is overuse. Swelling would be a possible indication of that. So, to say that everything is working fine except that your chops are swollen COULD mean that you've played past the point that your five-week comeback player chops can handle.
If you really want to figure this out, don't compromise at 30 minutes. Play no more than 20 minutes (inclusive of breaks), and don't play any notes that require you to strain. Perhaps even take a day or two off first. If things start to feel good after rest and then a few days of 20 minutes of practice time, gradually add two minutes every two weeks as long as your chops feel good.
You are right that 20 minutes doesn't leave a lot of time for scale studies and rep, but remember that you are building your foundation. You (hopefully) wouldn't start racing10Ks five weeks after you resumed running after a 20 year break. You'd build up. That's what you are doing now.
Hopefully, overuse is the issue as that is so easy to remedy with a bit of discipline.
Good luck!
Edit: I forgot to add that there is no reason why you cannot keep your overall MUSIC session as long as it currently is. Limit your trumpet practice to the 20 minutes as mentioned, and use the rest of the for other useful things, like ear training and focused listening. That will pay big dividends on down the road. |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Andy Cooper wrote: | 1. Are you using a new 3C mouthpiece or the one you played 20 years ago?
2. Do you polish your mouthpiece frequently with silver polish?
3. Have you ever tried a gold plated, stainless steel, or a plastic mouthpiece?
4. Have you ever tried a Wedge mouthpiece?
5. Have you tried a larger mouthpiece such as a Bach 1 1/4 or Yamaha 17B4?
6. Do you have any general allergies that you sometimes take allergy meds for?
I understand your feelings of frustration - for years I thought everyone's lips bleed when they played.
You have not yet, explored all options.
I would experience the same things you are experiencing if I polished my mouthpiece every week with 3M or tried to play on a plastic mouthpiece. I cannot tolerate the "friction". 3M leaves behind a wax protectant that increases friction, plastic has more friction too. I like to play "wet" not dry.
For me either no polish, stainless steel or gold plate.
I'm also sensitive to a lot of "undercut" on the rim - leads to vibration cuts and swelling (not from pressure). After years, I settled on a large diameter mouthpiece with not much undercut and an "inverse lay" rim. It puts most of the pressure closer to the outside of the rim leaving the inside free to move around.
NEILL SANDERS 17DA vs. BACH 1-1/2C( I play on the Sanders 17M which has a cup a little smaller the the Bach 1 1/2C)
The Wedge mouthpiece does something similar but in a different way.
Again - you have not explored all of your options. |
Hi Andy.
yes the 3 c mouthpiece is new. I know this may sound lazy but I've never polished a mpc. I'm guessing you are thinking maybe the polish might cause my lip swelling?
You are correct I have never tried any other mpc other than the Bach ones.
I was looking into the Wedge. I really liked that design and of all the ones I looked at, I thought Wedge might be my best option.
as much as i hate to admit it, there is a slight chance that codeine is interacting with my lips. I recently used Tylenol 1's for pain. the major lips swelling only happened after I started taking those. the reason I don't think that is the cause is, I never used them 20 years ago, and I still had the same issue. Same with Allergy meds.
I don't want to quit. I love playing trumpet more than anything else I do. I came back to it because I thought my past over-practice might have been the cause and I figured 25 years of healing may have fixed it. But I honestly don't know what else to do. I've done the math, over and over in my head and it doesn't compute. If its is an allergy it doesn't make sense to me. 25 years ago I vowed never to play again, after the incredible frustration I went through. I had to leave music school due to it. I lost money i had invested, and the mental toll was horrible. .. I am faced with only two viable options. quit...or play like this. Im not sure I can do the latter.... thanks for the support.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2024 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Dayton wrote: | | Quote: | | Thanks Dayton. ok. I will try lowering my practice time. I will likely try most recommendations to see what works. I can say though that I am not tired when I stop. at least I don't feel tired, my chops are usually working good(except for the swelling), and my problem might be I have an addiction to trumpet. The discipline for me is in putting the horn down, not picking it up. especially if I get on a roll, and im sounding good. I'll do a compromise and try 30 mins a day. but the warm up alone is maybe 10 -15 mins? doesn't leave much time for scales studies and repertoire??? |
Let's imagine that the problem is overuse. Swelling would be a possible indication of that. So, to say that everything is working fine except that your chops are swollen COULD mean that you've played past the point that your five-week comeback player chops can handle.
If you really want to figure this out, don't compromise at 30 minutes. Play no more than 20 minutes (inclusive of breaks), and don't play any notes that require you to strain. Perhaps even take a day or two off first. If things start to feel good after rest and then a few days of 20 minutes of practice time, gradually add two minutes every two weeks as long as your chops feel good.
You are right that 20 minutes doesn't leave a lot of time for scale studies and rep, but remember that you are building your foundation. You (hopefully) wouldn't start racing10Ks five weeks after you resumed running after a 20 year break. You'd build up. That's what you are doing now.
Hopefully, overuse is the issue as that is so easy to remedy with a bit of discipline.
Good luck!
Edit: I forgot to add that there is no reason why you cannot keep your overall MUSIC session as long as it currently is. Limit your trumpet practice to the 20 minutes as mentioned, and use the rest of the for other useful things, like ear training and focused listening. That will pay big dividends on down the road. |
thanks Dayton. Man! I appreciate all the support from here! ok, I have only two options now. quit...(which would be heartbreaking) or trust the process you are talking about. So what I will do is;
Ill give it one more try. I'm not going to quit for 1 week. Ill put the horn down for two more days. I guess if I come back to it, and the swelling is gone, of all the things that might be the issue, that seems the most logical then. Ill touch base back here in a couple days . that should be a determining moment. again thanks for the suggestions. Ill continue to respond to anyone that comments on this post. IF it is a green light Ill be asking more about how to better practice. best/Doug
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| CaptPat wrote: | | As a comeback player I found getting rest is important, so my practices are a series of 30-minute periods, in each period I play for 20 minutes and rest for 10, rinse and repeat 3 sometimes 4 times. I also take one day a week off from practice. I recently switched from a 3C to a 1 1/2C as the former was closing off near the end of each session, things are better with the larger MP, and my wife says I sound better. |
Hi CatPat. I only just saw your post. thanks! I approached my practicing the same way actually. i do 20-30 mins. rest for 30 or more, then do it again. although it often ends up being an hour when I finally get the discipline to "let go" of the practice. also I am going to try a few mouthpieces. I also take a day off each week, but I lack self discipline and often trying to take a day off, with my horn sitting right next to me, is surprisingly difficult. its like a drug addict sitting next to a pile of blow and telling himself he won't have any until tomorrow. anyway, That was what I was doing (day off)when the lip got the hard rubber feeling(the following day and into day 3 now) that keeps me from even having any lip response. up until then, now that I have read a lot of players thoughts I think I was having normal lip swelling until then. `Today I managed to get some sounds and even managed to practice for 20 minutes or so, but now after 3 days of basically doing nothing my endurance is limited. The sound today was still airy and unresponsive. so I am going to take a week off. not play all week at all. Ill know if my lips haven't returned to normal, that its the end of the road for me and trumpet. thanks!!
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Richard III wrote: | Any lesion on the inside of your lip? It would look like a small blister.
I used to have a habit of biting my lip when eating after a lot of playing. I would then get a canker sore, which would increase the swelling and make playing impossible. |
Hi Richard III. There \was a small lesion. it was only there yesterday and it was very small, like a small blister had popped, and almost not noticeable. it healed right away and is gone today. The lesion is behind where I buzz, and well into the inside of my lip, but not where the teeth would rest against the lip. I def don't bite my lip. but I thought maybe that's where the swelling had kind of opened the lip up a little. there was no pain, and it was almost like a small amount of skin peeling. but totally healed now. can't even tell it was there. might just have been an anomaly since I have never had that before. I am subject to cold sores, but they happen once a year. and heal quickly. and not usually where the lip buzzes.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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awesome spitvalve! yes I saw the ad here for that one and another one as well, but the shipping cost was more than the product.☹ I absolute will look for th Robinsons stuff. I have heard good things about it. best/Doug
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhondo wrote: | I would listen to Dayton and do what he suggests.
You’re only 5 weeks in! You can’t expect to not have consequences from over practicing, and it sounds like that may have been what you were doing years ago as well. Trumpet requires boat loads of patience.
Since it was mentioned, I don’t know why anyone would polish their mouthpiece. Keep it clean though. If it’s tarnished, use the tin foil, baking soda & hot water method to clean it. |
Rhondo, thanks. Yes of all the things that could be the issue, that is the one that makes the most sense to me(now). The thing is my logical brain(maybe not so logical after all) was feeding me messages such as:
"It can't be overpractice, you have a strong embouchure and can play for a long time" and, " listen you have broken up your practice routine and instead of 6 hours like you were doing back then which was for sure over practicing , you have cut it back to 1.5 hrs, surely you are capable of that!!"
So I guess I am not as capable as I thought.
couple that with:
"its ok to hit the new C and D over and over during practice because it sounds so good, you have figured it out, you have earned it and trust me it won't affect your lips tomorrow. its 25 years later"
maybe this is what hurt the lips?? It is true I didn't think that doing that could cause an issue. and my thinking was basically, what harm could a knocking out a few high C's and D's do during practice??
My teacher told me that an hour was a reasonable time frame for a days practice at my stage, but I guess I would usually go over that allotted time and play in the highest registers I am capable of during that time. I often played the Hering studies #1 straight through to #6 and often to # 10. without taking a reasonable break.
all I know is I actually hope THAT is the reason my lip has formed what feels like a rubber callous that stops the vibration. I hope it won't take long , if this is the reason, to heal?? thoughts??
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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spitvalve
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Mar 2002
Posts: 2161
Location: Little Elm, TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Douglas James wrote: |
awesome spitvalve! yes I saw the ad here for that one and another one as well, but the shipping cost was more than the product.☹ I absolute will look for th Robinsons stuff. I have heard good things about it. best/Doug |
I actually got mine on Amazon. The price was higher than on the website but I ended up saving a few bucks because of the free Prime shipping.
_________________
Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| spitvalve wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: |
awesome spitvalve! yes I saw the ad here for that one and another one as well, but the shipping cost was more than the product.☹ I absolute will look for th Robinsons stuff. I have heard good things about it. best/Doug |
I actually got mine on Amazon. The price was higher than on the website but I ended up saving a few bucks because of the free Prime shipping. |
unfortunately, I'm in Canada and its not on amazon.ca. 
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Steve A
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1808
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Douglas James wrote: | | spitvalve wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: |
awesome spitvalve! yes I saw the ad here for that one and another one as well, but the shipping cost was more than the product.☹ I absolute will look for th Robinsons stuff. I have heard good things about it. best/Doug |
I actually got mine on Amazon. The price was higher than on the website but I ended up saving a few bucks because of the free Prime shipping. |
unfortunately, I'm in Canada and its not on amazon.ca. |
You might have already found this, but Long and McQuade carries it. Matterhorn Music in BC also does. |
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Steve A wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: | | spitvalve wrote: | | Douglas James wrote: |
awesome spitvalve! yes I saw the ad here for that one and another one as well, but the shipping cost was more than the product.☹ I absolute will look for th Robinsons stuff. I have heard good things about it. best/Doug |
I actually got mine on Amazon. The price was higher than on the website but I ended up saving a few bucks because of the free Prime shipping. |
unfortunately, I'm in Canada and its not on amazon.ca. |
You might have already found this, but Long and McQuade carries it. Matterhorn Music in BC also does. |
No, I didn't know that. that's great news! Ill check Long and McQuade. I buy my trumpets from them. THANKS!!
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Rhondo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2021
Posts: 220
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Douglas, I think you mentioned icing your lips…
You might try running warm or very water as well. |
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Douglas James
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Rhondo wrote: | Douglas, I think you mentioned icing your lips…
You might try running warm or very water as well. |
Rhondo, like hot/cold therapy? Yes it seems to help on days I can play.
The ice seems to make my recovery time faster. 
ill try warm or very warm compresses. or have a glass of warm water handy with my ice.
I only just found out that many great players also ice thier lips. I thought I was just being eccentric and wasn't going to even mention it.
_________________
Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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Ronnman
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Joined: 09 Aug 2019
Posts: 409
Location: SE Louisiana
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Doug - another vote for the “Lip-Renew”. You can apply it during short rests when playing, it dries quickly and a little goes a long way. It does seem to reduce swelling and minor pain. I have been using it for about two months and have several fellow trumpet players in our community band using the product as well. The general consensus is that it helps during long playing sessions.
Also, don’t give up. After a 10 year break, when I returned to playing, it took 8-10 months before I had endurance to play an hour. Also, been through a mouthpiece safari before landing on my current two pieces. Fast forward to today and I can play 2 hours easily and +3 hours depending on the selected songs’ trumpet demands.
Ron
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Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
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Douglas James
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Joined: 12 Apr 2024
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2024 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Ronnman wrote: |
Doug - another vote for the “Lip-Renew”. You can apply it during short rests when playing, it dries quickly and a little goes a long way. It does seem to reduce swelling and minor pain. I have been using it for about two months and have several fellow trumpet players in our community band using the product as well. The general consensus is that it helps during long playing sessions.
Also, don’t give up. After a 10 year break, when I returned to playing, it took 8-10 months before I had endurance to play an hour. Also, been through a mouthpiece safari before landing on my current two pieces. Fast forward to today and I can play 2 hours easily and +3 hours depending on the selected songs’ trumpet demands.
Ron |
Hi Ronnman, I did respond to this post of yours already but for some reason it didn't post. I want to thank you for the support. It means a lot hearing what other players have gone through and succeeded. I did find a source for Lip renew. I will be buying some tomorrow, should my consultation go well. I was able to play for a little bit today and it felt as though my lip is getting better, but I don't want to jinx it. Yes, I think that the chances of it being over practicing are pretty high now. I will still do my week of taking a break but I will lose some endurance. anyway sorry my first post didn't get to you. and heartfelt thanks for offering your experience. It's really great to hear!! I am certainly impatient. best/Doug
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Bach Strad 180S37
pending XO professional Bb piccolo.
eyeing: John Packer Bb/A rotary Piccolo Trumpet |
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