Slow valves...what to do?

[Brad361]

[trumpet addict]

obviously if I had a bad repair tech, I wouldn't bring it to him.

I am fortunate enough to live in a state that has a good repair technician so it's not a problem for me. I see where you're coming from though.

[shofarguy]

[trumpet addict]

^^^^^^^
Agreed, Only if the valve is at an angle due to improper hand position, oil won't always fix the underlying problem.

[Brad361]

[trumpet addict]

Agreed again, we always have to look at the issue from multiple perspectives. That's a good point about the proper fit and seal, I would ask the repair tech about that and see if he had a valid answer.

[PakWaan]

For a description of what a valve job entails, why not ask the man who spent 20 years as the valve troubleshooting expert at Schilke?

http://doctorvalve.com/Services.html#whatisVO
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Taylor Chicago Standard • Getzen 900 Eterna Classic • Yamaha 731 flugelhorn
--- Sold everything else ---

[JazzCatDRP]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I ordered some Warburton Clean-Stroke, and it arrived today. I'll give that a whirl and see if that helps.

A previous poster mentioned that Bauerfiend valves shouldn't ever need rebuilt. In contact with the previous owner, I recently found out that my horn does indeed have Bauerfiend valves. What kind of a difference would that make in my decision making if the Clean Stroke doesn't work, if any?

[garpo3000]

I've always kind of had a similar sticky problem with my B&S Challenger. I've tried many things. It's not the greatest horn or in the greatest shape so there's no need to take it to Dr. Valve or anything.

Putting new springs in it helped, but there is still something not right.

Is it possible that the valve guides are the wrong size?

When I was younger (and less enlightened) this horn was in the shop and I know they replaced the valve guides. Is it possible that they just used generic Bach guides and those might be slightly different in shape or size and that might be causing the valves to stick?
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Conn Vintage One 1B46R-SP
B&S Challenger I 3137

[Geo7084]

I've struggled with a sluggish third valve on a vintage Olds horn. I tried various oils, cleaned the horn in between each oil brand, stronger springs and even thought about sending it out for a valve rebuild. I think this type of problem is common, but I also think that there probably may be many causes for this and if the diagnosis isn't obvious it can take some time to figure out. My local tech, after trying several things, finally buffed the inside ring that the valve guides go on in the valve casing on the bottom, and immediately under it, very gently. He suspected that there might be a tiny burr hanging up the action, as the valve moved fine except for the final quarter inch or so. Presto, problem cured!! I was so frustrated for weeks trying to deal with this and I'm fortunate my repair man figured it out.
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"Life without music would be a major drag!" Joe Schmiteck, Unemployed Philosopher.

[Manuel de los Campos]

I had a slow 3th valve on a Conn 22B. It turned out that the previous owner once sat (!) on the horn and that the 3th pump pushed the lower side of the leadpipe a little off thus creating tension on the valve casting, mostly on the 3th valve
I bended it back (is not so easy though) and problem was solved

So it is also a good idea to check if there is no unneccesary tension on the valve machine, check for alignment
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Technology alone is a poor substitute for experience. (Richard Sachs)

[OldSchoolEuph]

[PMonteiro]

Fun story: the 3rd valve on my Yamaha 2320 used to stick for unknown reasons. It got so annoying that I took sandpaper to the piston. Somehow it worked and the compression is still intact. This was years ago when I was less wise, and I would not suggest trying it, especially on a nicer horn.
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YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C

[Bflatman]

I am less convinced that a well oiled valve will rub against the valve casing.

Oils are long molecules of hydocarbons and these long chains are very strong and as long as they remain intact they act as a robust buffer between metal surfaces. They slip against each other and that is how oil functions.

In motor engines for example the extreme forces exerted on the oil breaks the molecules down over time and the oil then loses its ability to keep the metal surfaces apart. An oil change is then needed.

The longer an oil change is delayed the less long chain molecules remain and wear can happen.

in a trumpet there are relatively low forces exerted on the oil and I would not expect the molecules to break down. I would expect the oil to keep the metal surfaces apart.

From an engineering perspective oils in automobile engines withstand forces in excess of 1700 pounds and they do not break down and allow bearings to rub against each other..

For wear between the valve and wall I would look elsewhere to explain it than the oil allowing contact and wear.

I am not going to speculate on this.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[JayKosta]

[Bflatman]

I am in complete agreement Jay.
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Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet

[Beyond16]

I'm using light springs due to a finger injury, and have to use the thinnest oil possible to keep the return fast. Mineral spirits is the thinnest I know of. I use the odorless type (it's not odorless). Avoid the 'green' mineral spirits substitute. The downside of using mineral spirits is the valves need oil once or twice per day. It's low cost though.

[royjohn]

Since this thread started eleven years ago and the OP has apparently long ago left the building without weighing in on what actually happened, I don't think we will ever know the answer to the story. A lot of good answers were given, esp. the ones about tension or bending in the valve casing. My own thought, which no one brought up, was that this Harrelson really wasn't played that much and the valves weren't initially lapped enough and were just a little too tight. Might have been fine in the shop, but as oil built up, they started to stick...

This is a good reason to use a very good, insightful brass tech who could measure the valves and valve casings with a micrometer and whatever that gizmo is that measures valve casings to the thousandth of an inch or less. I've even got a set of them, but can't remember what you call them. If the valves appear too tight, they can easily be lapped a little, but if they aren't, lapping them would just result in leaky valves which wouldn't last as long.

Also, it's only an experienced tech who would know to check for casing alignment and other out of the way causes. Tho' I am a confirmed DIY guy, this is one case where I would draw the line at a little cleaning and trying out a few oils and then, if that didn't work, take it to a master tech.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[JayKosta]

[ericmpena]