Embuchure dystonia

robbo · Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:18 pm Post subject: Embuchure dystonia

Is anyone experiencing or know someone with embochure dystonia?
I thought i had some kind of muscle deterioration in the chops, but after a while someone said to look up Phil Smith (NY phil) where this cost him his carreer.
For me I can still work professionally to an extent, but basically i have weakness in the lower lip. It affects my articulation primarily.

Rob
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Doug Elliott · Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2024 9:13 pm Post subject:

Long before someone decided to use term "dystonia" (which it's not), players would "lose their chops."

It's the long term result of incorrect form for the individual, or type switching in Reinhardt terms.

Robert P · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2600

Have you checked with a doctor?
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Seymor B Fudd · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 4:39 am Post subject:

Plus: are you dead sure your condition isn´t the outcome of an overuse syndrom??
My question has to do with the fact that at one point, having practiced a lot (at least that was my explanation), my chops died, kind of; I wasn´t even able to play a decent C middle of staff. Nothing seemed to help so I was on the verge of quitting...My lips, in my case my top lip in particular felt just ´spongy´. Resting didn´t help.
Melinda Lewis gave good advice; my teacher led me to the narrow road and BE did the rest. The essence being: relaxation! Don´t overdo it. Get rid of the perfection monster sitting on your shoulder. More bang for the bucks! Sounds simple but wasn´t.
I was, when this happened, a rather seasoned player with roughly 50 years of successfull amateur playing behind me. Lead and brass band front row most of the time.

In my case the reason turned out to be, in spite of my previous good years, a faulty embouchure; too much pressure, too little air, far too many muscles of my face involved (I never took a lesson prior to this, but realized that I had to...). My teacher summarized his ideas in "Breathe breathe breathe".

Now, you are pro so I guess you are a "trained" player - so overuse????
Just a thought!
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abontrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1800

Uberopa · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 6:24 am Post subject:

While I can't say that I had embouchure dystonia, I did suffer an embouchure collapse. It was so severe that I shook uncontrollably as soon as I picked up the horn. I had a number of health and age related problems. These included type 2 diabetes, hypertension, two major concussions, recent heart attack and some essential tremor and a back injury from senior falls. For ten years I felt that I was having one health crisis after another. As a result my playing went into a death spiral. I was even involuntarily retired from the big band I had played in for twenty years.
I am too dumb to quit so I started taking lessons with a very good local symphony player. We started at the start. Getchell Book One, ex 1.and Cichowicz and Clark ex.1
In the past four months I have practiced an hour a day. My teacher described my troubles as related to developing bad habits over the years and my methods of sound production no longer worked considering my age and health problems.
The rebuilding process has been hard work. I have dialled out the tremor in my sound. I can play the Cichowicz exercises up to a D above the staff and I sound better than now than when I was at university. On a fixed pensioner income the weekly lessons were expensive. I can tell you definitively that I had to have an external observer and advisor and a cheerleader to keep me motivated. The overarching strategy was to embrace the concept and practice of effortless playingg. Paradoxically, it takes incredible determination and hard work to do it.
So swallow hard and check your ego, roll up your sleeves and get to work. Miss been a labour of love. If I can recover, considering all my challenges, I'm pretty sure that you may do the same. Cheers.

epoustoufle · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 8:01 am Post subject:

Another sufferer of failed chops here. I watched the Phil Smith documentary and it's not the same as what he had. More like the spongy chops that can't vibrate. Then it takes a lot of muscular control from outside to manipulate the center, which is just non-vibrant, non-muscular mush. Every day it changes.

One of the challenges is the Stone Age attitude of "practice practice practice" as the secret formula for success. Works for some, but for others it is an embouchure death sentence (or life sentence of struggle). No point blaming anyone - we do it to ourselves - but brain-dead teaching especially at "elite" colleges (which I attended at junior level) doesn't help. It's like sending a bunch of competitive kids to weight training without teaching them form - madness.

What seems to help is Billy Bergren's "First Lesson" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxTb2gEaTU4), mainly the first 15 minutes. After many years of manipulation and pulling/stretching/compressing/finding the magic spot/angle this really lays it bare. NONE of that is needed.

Then later on to get some actual muscles to grow the right way, something like Hickman's pop tones or Callet's tongue compression. Paying attention to getting compression in the mouth from just the tongue, and feeling the compressed air set the top lip alight.

It's a work in progress. There's so much information out there that's well meaning but can't help you unless you already have the right mechanics. It can end up being manipulation and "practice practice practice" just making things worse.

2c from someone who's been there!

Rhondo · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:12 am Post subject:

Uberopa · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:49 pm Post subject:

After seventy, lots of things change. If you aren't there yet, you're lucky. The ride starts to get rough.

Rhondo · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:44 pm Post subject:

Doug Elliott · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 2:47 pm Post subject:

The medical establishment says "there is no cure for dystonia."
Therefore, anyone who claims to have gotten over it DIDN'T have "dystonia."

If you don't know about embouchure types, I wouldn't expect you to understand what "incorrect form" or "type switching" means. But LOTS of players play great that way for their entire careers, until it falls apart.

robbo · Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2024 5:06 pm Post subject:

Thanks everyone.

I'll try and answer most comments in one.

I've never been an over worker (for better or for worse). At my peak (during university as a classical player) I averaged 2-2.5 hrs practice a day, and in no more than 30 min blocks. The practice was always balanced (arbans, long tones, repertoire, studies). I've rarely hammered them btw (eg to develop high range).

It came about after covid where I was re deployed to a non music role for a year. I kept in touch, and when we resumed I eased into it very slowly. I also returned to work with only a section of 2 players instead of 4. I was not concerned at all about the extra responsibility, but dystonia they say is often triggered by an incident.

What is unusual is that it's the simple things that frustrate me, eg lowish articulations. As I get higher it's better (which is where you're usually more exposed, and as a result ppl don't really hear the issue). I find it's tougher to "re set" after a breath. Due to the lack of strength in the lower lip I have less of a cushion, resulting in more pain from playing (not the "good" pain in the corners of the lips, more in the center over the teeth).

I have seen a neurologist, and he confirmed is as dystonia. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned, it rarely goes away. The only up side is that it rarely gets worse. There is study being done here in Australia (this link is of a violinist who ovecame it with modern treatment, but it's easier to diagnose with hand movement)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-26/the-magical-cure-of-a-violinist-through-modern/102526766

There was a big study done in the USA where they studied about 100 wind players with embouchure dystonia. That was also re assuring that I wan't making it up.

In summary, I've been playing for 40 years, am not an over thinker, and have always stuck to the same routine, so this was quite out of the blue.
Phi Smith commented that the hard thing about it is that everyone is offering him technical advice, and not believing that it is a neurological condition. That I have found to be very true and you end up being forced to "suffer in silence".

Again, thanks for your comments

Rob
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Currently staff arranger for the band of the South Australia Police.
Berklee College of Music, Elder Conservatorium Adelaide, Australia.
For some great trumpet and band music please visit piglet music.com. Grab some free music there!