Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:32 am Post subject: What does "wrap" mean in the design of a horn?
I'm starting a new topic here because I've heard this term used by quite a few people and I honestly don't know what it means.
That term is "wrap." As in single wrap, double wrap, American wrap, etc. I gather it has something to do with the design of the bell and/or tubing used in making the cornet/trumpet, but beyond that I'm not sure what exactly it refers to. Is it how the tube from the bell back is bent (wrapped?) around the get to the valves, or the degree of bend, or something else?
Coming back to playing after decades off, I realize that there's a lot of things I never knew back then, so now that I'm older and more interested in learning (as well as playing), it's fascinating to learn more about these things. _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
As far as I know it's pretty much how you describe it. The term 'wrap' refers to the general shape of the tubing and how said tubing is bent (effectively how it is 'wrapped around the valve block' so to speak).
For example, the Conn 28A cornet has a 'trumpet wrap'. And this flugelhorn has a 'cornet wrap', meaning the way the tubing is bent resembles the general shape of a cornet. And if you were to compare the various Olds cornet models, you'll find they all have a different way the tubing is bent, i.e. a different 'wrap'. _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
As far as I know it's pretty much how you describe it. The term 'wrap' refers to the general shape of the tubing and how said tubing is bent (effectively how it is 'wrapped around the valve block' so to speak).
For example, the Conn 28A cornet has a 'trumpet wrap'. And this flugelhorn has a 'cornet wrap', meaning the way the tubing is bent resembles the general shape of a cornet. And if you were to compare the various Olds cornet models, you'll find they all have a different way the tubing is bent, i.e. a different 'wrap'.
Wow, I didn't realize there were that many different ways to bend pipes on a cornet!
I've never seen a flugelhorn like that (or if I did, I probably just thought it was a cornet). Except for the larger bell it really does resemble a cornet.
I guess that's where design and intellectual property come into play, to help differentiate one manufacturer's horn from another, and over time the designs that sound better will be proven out (by sales, by who plays them, etc). _________________ Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 701 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:34 am Post subject:
I would add to Stuartissimo's observation that we used to hear that trumpets were 1/3 conical and 2/3's cylindrical while cornets were 2/3's conical and 1/3 cylindrical, requiring that the cornet leadpipe be more conical, and therefore longer than that of the trumpet, requiring that the lead pipe of the cornet had to be bent around.
If you look over the cornet designs from about pre WW II, there were some really odd and inventive ways to wrap the pipes. Some had multiple "telescopic" tuning slides (slides that entered at one diameter and exited at a larger diameter). The "trumpet wrapped" Conn and Olds (Mendez) cornets had shortened and telescopic tuning slides. Later designed Olds Recording and Conn 76A Connquest put the tuning slide after the valveset.
The older Olds Super cornet has the telescopic main slide (and some older Holton designs) parallel and beside the 3rd valve slide.
The Conn "New Wonder" (which became the 80A Victor, along with several variations). Had a telescopic Bb/A trumpet type slide (most people assume that is the main slide), with a micro tuned main slide the valve set. The early versions of that horn have a mechanism that pull the valve slides when the A pull slide is pulled to the set position.
Another notable innovation was the "underslung" main slide of the King Master cornet (also incorporating a micro tuned A stop) designed by Foster A Reynolds (later used on some of his own Reynolds Cornets).
Lastly, I mention the "Oops Loop" cornet wrap, so called because they look like trumpets, but on closer examination, they have an additional over under loop that appears hidden behind the first slide: the "oops, it IS a cornet! _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
I've also heard the terms "open wrap" and "tight wrap" in reference to the distance, or space, from the bottom side of the bell adjacent to the 3rd valve casing (while in holding position) down to the top of the 3rd valve slide. If there is more distance/space, then it is an "open wrap," allowing you to easily place LH fingers under the bell when the LH ring finger is in the 3rd ring. I believe Bb trumpets that have this wrap would include some old Conn models as well as the present-day Adams A6 and Edwards X-13. In contrast the Adams A3SH Fulcrum model has a fairly "tight wrap."
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:17 pm Post subject:
Five models of Conn cornets in the 1960s that come to mind had what I call a “reverse flow” wrap. That is, the leadpipe entered the 1st valve and the bell exited the 3rd valve. The 15A, 17A, 76A, 5A, and 9A models were made this way. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
I've also heard the terms "open wrap" and "tight wrap" in reference to the distance, or space, from the bottom side of the bell adjacent to the 3rd valve casing (while in holding position) down to the top of the 3rd valve slide.
Very good point -- that particular terminology crops up a lot.
Wraps become very convoluted once you delve into the world of pocket trumpets and cornets, to wit:
On the Caduceus, the tubing coils around the valve block several times. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12665 Location: Gardena, Ca
Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2024 8:31 pm Post subject:
I wonder how the different wraps affect the way the instrument plays.
For instance there are slides with differing shapes on the radius of the main tuning slides on Bachs and other instruments. Full radius and D shaped for instance.
I would add to Stuartissimo's observation that we used to hear that trumpets were 1/3 conical and 2/3's cylindrical while cornets were 2/3's conical and 1/3 cylindrical, requiring that the cornet leadpipe be more conical, and therefore longer than that of the trumpet, requiring that the lead pipe of the cornet had to be bent around.
If you look over the cornet designs from about pre WW II, there were some really odd and inventive ways to wrap the pipes. Some had multiple "telescopic" tuning slides (slides that entered at one diameter and exited at a larger diameter). The "trumpet wrapped" Conn and Olds (Mendez) cornets had shortened and telescopic tuning slides. Later designed Olds Recording and Conn 76A Connquest put the tuning slide after the valveset.
Man, I'd love to see some pictures of those old horns with those differing designs. Are there any resources/websites you can recommend?
It just goes to show you that even instrument designers go out of their way to come up with something new and unusual to set their horns apart (but hopefully those designs didn't screw up the functionality of the horns too much). _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
Five models of Conn cornets in the 1960s that come to mind had what I call a “reverse flow” wrap. That is, the leadpipe entered the 1st valve and the bell exited the 3rd valve. The 15A, 17A, 76A, 5A, and 9A models were made this way.
My 1958 Conn Director 14A also is set up that way. _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
I've also heard the terms "open wrap" and "tight wrap" in reference to the distance, or space, from the bottom side of the bell adjacent to the 3rd valve casing (while in holding position) down to the top of the 3rd valve slide.
Very good point -- that particular terminology crops up a lot.
Wraps become very convoluted once you delve into the world of pocket trumpets and cornets, to wit:
On the Caduceus, the tubing coils around the valve block several times.
Not knowing anything about pocket trumpets (I only learned those existed less than a year ago when I came back to playing my horn), I have to ask: Are those pocket trumpets and cornets actually playable like that, or is it really more of an exercise in showing how compact you can wrap the pipes? _________________ Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...
“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche
1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A
I wonder how the different wraps affect the way the instrument plays.
For instance there are slides with differing shapes on the radius of the main tuning slides on Bachs and other instruments. Full radius and D shaped for instance.
I certainly don't know everything about how wrap affects how an instrument plays, but here are some observations I've made over the past 15 years or so:
1) Tight radii add brilliance to timbre. Some examples are Schilke B series trumpets, WT flugelhorn vs. Kanstul 1025 flugelhorn. Concerning Schilke trumpets, the valve tubing half-tone bowls are very tight radius, as are the tuning slide crook and bell bow. These trumpets all have a very brilliant component to their sound. An extreme case similar to this would be early "pea-shooter" designs. In the case of the two flugelhorn designs, there are only a few differences between the two models, but the most telling is the decreasing radius bend of the bell bow on the 1025, as opposed to the constant radius of the Wild Thing. I've owned both and the Kanstul has a definite rise in impedance above the staff that isn't present on the Wild Thing.
2) Open radii add smooth consistency to impedance response and timbre. The most accessible example of this is when we compare a single radius tuning slide to a D-shape or especially a "square" bend. The single radius gives a lyrical response that is less structured than the D or square bends, the square giving the most defined note slotting, in most cases. Another example is the shepherd crook cornet wrap, such as the Wild Thing, Kanstul 1530 or the Benge 8Z. Compared to, say, the American Long Cornet that Flip Oakes offered alongside his Short Cornet, the open bends of the bell and valve tubing gave the Shepherds Crook Short Cornet a noticeably more smooth sound and response.
3) Though more difficult to quantify, it also matters where the designer places the valve block along the length of the instrument. One of the unique elements of the Flip Oakes Wild Thing, Celebration and Inspiration trumpets was that the valves were mounted closer to the bell rim than is typical; more closely related to a cornet wrap. The greater length of tubing leading to the valves and the shorter length after them gave the Wild Thing it's unique shape. The classic Martin Committee wrap places the valves even closer to the mouthpiece than the WT or standard designs, which immediately gives that horn an intimate feel that pulls the player into the lyrical romance we all dream of when we hear Chet or Chris playing the ballads that make us lust after those horns. _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 22 May 2020 Posts: 631 Location: Here and there
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:31 am Post subject:
stuartissimo wrote:
As far as I know it's pretty much how you describe it. The term 'wrap' refers to the general shape of the tubing and how said tubing is bent (effectively how it is 'wrapped around the valve block' so to speak).
For example, the Conn 28A cornet has a 'trumpet wrap'. And this flugelhorn has a 'cornet wrap', meaning the way the tubing is bent resembles the general shape of a cornet. And if you were to compare the various Olds cornet models, you'll find they all have a different way the tubing is bent, i.e. a different 'wrap'.
I would note that the 28A doesn't just have a 'trumpet wrap,' it has what is often referred to as a 'wide trumpet wrap.' The 28A cornet, like the 38B, 8B, and various other Conn trumpets, my Kanstul 991, and the Adams A6, are medium bore horns, around .438 to .439, and (I think) to compensate for this the wrap of those horns is both wider and longer than a 'regular' B flat trumpet. Putting my Kanstul 991 next to my Bach, for instance, reveals the leadpipe to be notably longer on the Kanstul and the 'height,' of the tuning slide is probably an inch taller as well. In short, horns of the 28A/991/A6/etc design are observably larger than a typical Strad or Besson-style horn, almost as if they were in the key of the microtone between B Flat and A _________________ 1932 King Silvertone cornet
1936 King Liberty No. 2 trumpet
1958 Reynolds Contempora 44-M "Renascence" C
1962 Reynolds Argenta LB trumpet
1965 Conn 38A
1995 Bach LR18072
2003 Kanstul 991
2011 Schilke P5-4 B/G
2021 Manchester Brass flugel
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3317 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:53 am Post subject:
Another consideration is how the wrap affects the collection and removal of condensation. Especially if water can accumulate in a U shaped tube. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Are those pocket trumpets and cornets actually playable like that, or is it really more of an exercise in showing how compact you can wrap the pipes?
How dare you!
Just kidding.
They are all playable. The only caveat I would add is that some have less precise intonation (as well as differences in other playing characteristics such as projection, feedback, response, range, etc.) compared to conventional horns due to compromises imposed by their designs. On the other hand, some play quite well (the Benge pocket trumpet is an example -- you can read more about it here: https://www.robbstewart.com/benge-pocket-trumpets. I have one of these, from the Burbank era when Donald Benge still owned the company.)
Just to give you an extreme example of 'unexpected playability', here is Jeff Stockham playing a King Mini-Liberty (a half-sized King Liberty trumpet made in very small numbers by H. N. White company in the late 20's-early 30's as a gift for King artists and successful H. N. White salespeople):
These were pitched like conventional piccolo trumpets, but were never meant to be played seriously, despite Jeff's amazing demonstration. (I have one of these in my collection, too, and they are truly hard to play well.) _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 701 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:06 am Post subject:
Pretty sure that is a piccolo trumpet, not a pocket trumpet. But still, I am humbled, jealous and very impressed.
I will say not all pocket trumpets are even usable, you get what you pay for. I recently got the CarolBrass mini pocket trumpet and have sat in on several big concert band rehearsals with it (with and without the large bell "Anti-mute") and everyone said they could not tell it from my full sized trumpet! Several guys played it themselves with similar results. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
Pretty sure that is a piccolo trumpet, not a pocket trumpet.
Oh yes, it's definitely not a pocket trumpet, and it more closely fits the category of "piccolo trumpet". I just mentioned it anyway because I wanted to give an example of a really improbable playable item. _________________ "He that plays the King shall be welcome . . . " (Hamlet Act II, Scene 2, Line 1416)
"He had no concept of the instrument. He was blowing into it." -- Virgil Starkwell's cello teacher in "Take the Money and Run"
Last edited by Halflip on Wed Apr 24, 2024 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9379 Location: Heart of Dixie
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:57 pm Post subject:
huntman10 wrote:
Pretty sure that is a piccolo trumpet, not a pocket trumpet. But still, I am humbled, jealous and very impressed.
It’s basically a 1/2 scale Bb trumpet, so it plays an octave higher. If you look closely at the video, you can see it. Years ago, our band was in St. Louis for a gig and dropped in at a downtown music store that had one of those little Kings. I got to hold it and examine it, but I didn’t get to play it. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 701 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2024 7:08 pm Post subject:
rhatheway wrote:
huntman10 wrote:
I would add to Stuartissimo's observation that we used to hear that trumpets were 1/3 conical and 2/3's cylindrical while cornets were 2/3's conical and 1/3 cylindrical, requiring that the cornet leadpipe be more conical, and therefore longer than that of the trumpet, requiring that the lead pipe of the cornet had to be bent around.
If you look over the cornet designs from about pre WW II, there were some really odd and inventive ways to wrap the pipes. Some had multiple "telescopic" tuning slides (slides that entered at one diameter and exited at a larger diameter). The "trumpet wrapped" Conn and Olds (Mendez) cornets had shortened and telescopic tuning slides. Later designed Olds Recording and Conn 76A Connquest put the tuning slide after the valveset.
Man, I'd love to see some pictures of those old horns with those differing designs. Are there any resources/websites you can recommend?
Thought I'd show you some of the interesting cornets of the past.
Now that I think about it, wrap is an almost endless variety of possibilities. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
Now that I think about it, wrap is an almost endless variety of possibilities.
Yeah, I really like the 'let's just try this and see what happens' design attitude of the previous century. There's something to be said for modeling/simulating/calculating before building a prototype in terms of efficiency, and it makes sense to stick to what works best, but there's just something cool about those (sometimes crazy) old designs.
Fortunately there are some modern builders who stray from the standard design path as well. Horns like the Gansch horn or the Phat Puppy are really cool as well (but you'd better have the chops to match if you show up at a rehersal with one, or people will call you out on it ). _________________ 1975 Olds Recording trumpet
1997 Getzen 700SP trumpet
1955 Olds Super cornet
1939 Buescher 280 flugelhorn
AR Resonance mouthpieces
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