Changing horns

[senea]

This last month I have been starting to prepare for grad. school/job auditions: several hours of intelligent practice per day, plenty of breaks, a couple of days off, etc. I've been playing my routine mostly on Bb, and I have been playing excerpts, etudes, solos, and flow studies on Bb, C and piccolo.

My problem is that even though I'm getting into extremes with moderate ease (and within the context of a musical phrase) on my Bb and piccolo, my C playing is not progressing.

I have always had problems with C, as if I were limited on that type of horn or something. I can't play louder than what a mf sounds on Bb or softer than a p, and I lose about 3-4 whole steps in my upper register.

So last Friday I started on C with the same material and approach I normally use, but I couldn't finish any of the exercises. This is a horn I play on everyday and after 45 minutes I couldn't make any sound at all. I warmed down as best I could, waited a couple of hours, picked up my Bb and played some flow studies. After 10 minutes I had to quit that too because I was getting such a scratchy, unfocused, airy sound.

Three days later, I'm just now starting to get a full sound back on long tones and clarkes, but intervals are still scratchy and inaccurate.

My goal is to be able to play either big horn interchangeably.



In case it's necessary, I have a Yamaha HG Bb (10 years old), and a Bach 239 C 25 H (one year old) and I use a Bach 1 1/2 B with a 24 throat (two months old) on both.


[ This Message was edited by: senea on 2003-08-20 22:56 ]

[fuzzyjon79]

Have you replaced the leadpipe on that Bach C trumpet?
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

[senea]

No the horn has not been altered yet. I thought about that leadpipe though.
Should I get another one?

[ This Message was edited by: senea on 2003-08-18 23:08 ]

[PH]

Senea,

Let's assume that your C trumpet and mouthpiece are in good working order. Have you had someone (such as your teacher) play on the horn to be sure it plays OK? If so, then the problem isn't anywhere except with you.

The trumpet is an inanimate object that is totally bound by the laws of nature...physics, acoustics, etc. We can't force it to do anything. Therefore, we have to modify our approach so that what our body does when playing is in sympathy with the instrument and the laws the instrument abides by.

Every instrument is different. These differences can be confusing when you are adapting to an instrument in a different key, trumpet to flugelhorn, etc. Personally, I had a lot of trouble when going back and forth from trumpet to flugelhorn. I would try to play the trumpet like a flugelhorn and the flugelhorn like a trumpet. This produced very unsatisfactory results.

At first there are some challenges in changing from the Bb trumpet to the C trumpet. Your body can get confused because the instruments are pretty close in both size and timbre. I never had trouble switching from Bb to picc. The differences were impossible to miss. However, without tremendous concentration on the right things I do get confused when playing C (something I admittedly rarely do these days as a jazz player), cornet, or flugelhorn.

So, what do you do to learn to make this transition seamlessly?

The physical changes you are required to make are quite subtle. You don't want to let your thinking be drawn to far into the physical. As much as possible you should keep your mind in a musical space, immersed in the sound, singing in your imagination.

I think you should ideally play on every horn in your active arsenal every day. I find it helpful to start a session on a new instrument (especially in a different key) with 5-15 minutes of fundamentals: long tones, Clarkes, flow studies, simple articulation stuff such as Arban studies... Go for the same richness of tone and the feeling of flow that you have on the Bb. Play at a comfortable, but full volume.

After this, Mr. Adam usually uses a book of very simple melodies to introduce horns in other keys. Getchell's "First book of Practical Studies" works very nicely. You want your conscious mind to become immersed in the flow of the music and the sound of each phrase. This (combined with the flowing air) will allow your unconscious mind to adjust the physical approach until your achieve the same kind of musical results on C that you are attaining on Bb.

Open the Getchell book to the first study. Give yourself the first pitch and sing (vigorously) through the entire exercise on the syllable "doo". Then, pick up your horn (DO NOT think about which horn it is!) and play through the study. As you play you are to think as if you are still singing the study on the syllable "doo". Don't think about your body with your conscious mind. Don't think of the fingerings or the counting. See the melodic and rhythmic patterns and sing them in your imagination. Your unconscious mind will work with your body to push the right valves down and adjust your air, embouchure, etc.

USE THE FORCE!

Alternate playing and singing through as many of these studies as you can. After playing all the way through the Getchell book a few times as written (over the course of a week or two), go back and do the same thing again, however, this time act as if the entire book is for D trumpet. DO NOT think analytically about transposing! Simply give yourself the new (transposed) starting note and sing the first study on "doo". Then play the study in the new key BY EAR! Don't think of transposing by interval or clef. Simply see the sound and sing it in your imagination from the new starting note. Trust your unconscious mind to do whatever it takes to play the studies in the new key. Keep your conscious mind 100% immersed in singing the sound of the melody.

Eventually you should do the entire book in all the most common transpositions in this fashion: alternate singing and playing and do the transposition by ear. Your ears drive the bus! All your conscious mind does is keep your eyes on the road.

In just a few days of working in this way (perhaps 30 minutes a day) you should begin to achieve the same fluidity you have on Bb. When the 1st Getchell book is getting easy you should try the 2nd Getchell book and/or the Arban "Art of Phrasing".

[tromba mann]

I'm no pro and all the advice above sounds great to me, but I do have an idea you might consider...

Try playing your C with the same model mouthpiece as your Bb but with a professionally drilled out throat. That really helped my C playing. I have a stock 3C for my Bb and a drilled 3C for my C and that has really helped me.

[PH]

Good point, Tromba Mann.

Generally the larger throat on the C trumpet mouthpiece helps balance things out. Also, most players prefer the large bore C and the medium-large bore Bb.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-08-19 16:58 ]

[fuzzyjon79]

If the mouthpiece suggestion doesn't work and you have someone else play your C trumpet and they have the same problem you have then yes, you might want to consider a blackburn leadpipe or some other leadpipe. I've heard of lots of people changing the leadpipe on a Bach C and afterwards it makes a world of difference.
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

[romey1]

I would try a Bach 1 1/2C or Curry equivalent with a 24 throat. This will give you a little extra support. I made a similiar switch and at first I thought it was too bright - but after a few days everything improved.

The 1 1/2B and other Bach B cup models can be problematic because of the rim and backbore. The rims on the B cup models are thinner and I find them less comfortable personally. A few people I know can make this kind rim work - Larry Knopp for example - but he is an ox and weighs over 225 lbs. I find them too thin and cutting, which reduces endurance. The problem with the stock backbore of the Bach B cup models is that it is a Bach 7 backbore. (if that is what you have - you never know with Bach!!!!) This is a problem because it it actually smaller than the stock #10, resulting with a flat upper register. Opening the throat can make this problem even worse.

I would try the Curry's. Lots of people play the stock 1 1/2C - like Bill Lucas in Detroit.

Please disregard these suggestions if your experience has been different.

romey

[BRSpringer]

According to the Bach mouthpiece manual, the 7 backbore is a "Schmitt style" backbore, which is very open. And the Warburton Backbore Comparison Chart lists the 7 as being larger, not smaller than the standard 10 backbore.

Barry

[romey1]

Barry,

You are correct - in the Bach catalog the 7 backbore is decribed as schmitt style, but it is not a full schmitt. A full schmitt is even bigger than a bach 24. I'm only talking about 7 backbores from the Bach factory, not from different companies. The Bach 7 is smaller than the Bach 10. The Bach B cup mouthpieces come with the 7 as stock. Many players have it opened to a 24 because they find it stuffy.

You cannot have a stock 1 1/2C mouthpiece (with the 10 backbore as stock) altered to a Bach 7 backbore. It must be custom ordered.

Occasionally you will find a Bach B cup that has a 10 backbore by accident. This is due to poor quality control at the factory. Even with the CNC machine, backbores are still put in by hand.

Contact Scott Laskey or Karl Hammond at Schilke if you don't believe me. Or contact someone at Bach. I can feel a difference when cleaning out the backbore with a mouthpiece brush.

If you want to argue or discuss this more, perhaps a more appropriate place would be the mouthpiece forum.

romey

[ This Message was edited by: romey1 on 2003-08-19 22:58 ]

[senea]

I don't think it is my horn. Everyone who plays on it really likes it.

I played on it today for the first time since last week and it's weird. I can play some excerpts - ballerina's dance and the walse are good, but Mahler 5 and the Promenade are painful! The leaps, and the upper register at those volumes are ending me. I feel like I'm blowing on a brick instead of through a horn.

Pat, I really liked all of your advice and it is working beautifully on my Bb, but I am very concerned because I don't feel like I change my approach that much when I get to my C. It' physically painful to play full out on it. I should probably play for someone but there's not much going on around me.

Romey, I have tried the 1 1/2 C with a 24 throat on my Bb and I sounded very bright on it for some reason. I find the B cup to be comfortable also, and I feel crowded in a 3 rim so I thought this was what I was supposed to do. Woudl having the backbore altered do anything?

As far as mouthpieces are concerned, I am a complete jackass. I know of Bachs, Yamahas , Schilkes and Laskeys (cause a guy I knew wouldn't shut up about them) and that's about it. I've never tried out mouthpieces because where I live they only carry the first three I mentioned. I am pretty open-minded though, and I will try anything I can afford.

Maybe this is a stupid question, but: I am still under the impression that I am doing something wrong, but what point do I have to reach to decide that I need a new mouthpiece?

[ This Message was edited by: senea on 2003-08-20 23:18 ]

[fuzzyjon79]

Give your current mouthpiece a chance before you spend more money buying a new one. If you can have a private teacher or an experience professional player listen to you play then they might be able to help you. That's what I would do first. If you do decide to switch mouthpieces you might look into Warburton since you can mix and match cups and backbores until you find something that tickles your fancy.
_________________
J. Fowler
"It takes a big ole' sack of flour, to make a big ole' pan of biscuits!"

[Nonsense Eliminator]

From an equipment standpoint, you might consider trying a stock 1.5C on the C trumpet. It is possible that the problem on the C trumpet is too little resistance, not too much. All else being equal (which of course it never is), a shorter instrument has LESS resistance than a longer one. (Blow through a drinking straw, then cut it in half and blow again. Which has more resistance?) Compounding that is the fact that most people play large bore C trumpets. I find that if I play B flat a lot (which almost never happens, thankfully!) my C trumpet feels like I'm going to fall in. A 1.5B with a 24 throat is a big mouthpiece. I realize that you may feel that the sound is a compromise, but IMO a "bright" but resonant sound beats a "dark" but strained one any day. Just my 1.43 cents.

Other than that, just play the thing. When I'm trying to get used to a new horn or a horn I don't play a lot, the two things I will generally use are Getchells (exactly as Pat described... what a coincidence...) and lyrical pieces and exercises. The tunes at the back of the Arban, and the complete Concone (published by Balquhidder) are great sources. Pull some of those out and just sing your little heart out. (Through the horn, although literally singing them won't hurt either.) The big issue getting used to a different horn is feeling out where and how the notes slot, and IMO the best way to do that is by playing simple melodies and focussing on the sound.

One other thing you might try is doing some pitch bends, to help you find the centre of the notes. If you're struggling on an instrument, there's a good chance that you're not playing in the centre of the pitch. Some people initially try to play very low on the pitch on C trumpet in order to "darken" the sound, and because they're used to hearing the pitches on B flat trumpet. Playing something like this C-B-C-B-C- [rest] C-----, with the first B played with the valve and the second one lipped down, then going down by semitones, can help you figure out if you're really putting the notes where they want to go.

Regardless of the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of these or anybody else's suggestions, I would recommend that you do whatever it takes to get to a competent teacher.

[Clarion Wind]

I had the same problem when I picked up my C trumpet, and still do to a lesser extent. My horn was picked out for me by a well known professional, and it played better for me right off the bat than any other C I had ever played. In addition all my instructors that have ever tried the horn love it, so it wasn't the horn. Honestly, the only way to really learn that sucker is to REALLY start playing on it a lot. If you wan't to be as competent on C trumpet as on your Bb you are going to have to play it just as much. If you practice four hours a day, two had better be on C trumpet, and that can be a real pain in the you know what at first, and may even cause difficulties with your playing on Bb, but otherwise it will always be a distant second to your abilities on Bb. It all depends on how much you think you are going to see a C trumpet in your hands in the future for gigs, etc.

[razeontherock]

Two varied approaches:

nobody said do the routine on C??!! Sort of like the last reply ...

Monette advocates you need a different m'piece, specificaly designed for a differently pitched horn. Obviously you can "hobble along" w/ anything and improve, but equipment can make a big difference.
_________________
"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details