BE in other languages

[trumpetteacher1]

This topic comes up from time to time - usually driven by enthusiasm for the BE method, which believe me, I appreciate.

For those of you interested in a non-English version of BE, or are interested in contributing to one, please be aware that it is a little more complex than simply squirting out, for example, a German or Spanish version.

First, I don't speak those languages! Since I offer free email support to those who commit to BE, I will be unable to fulfill my end of the deal.

I offer the email support because I am primarily interested in the success of the BE student. This philosophy is different than getting the book into as many hands as possible.

People tell me that certain foreign markets have huge sales potential (I will tell my China story one of these days), as if that is a compelling reason for taking action. I disagree. If I wanted to sell more books, I would market to traditional retailers all over the world. Instead, I (so far) have turned down every one of them who has contacted me. All they want is to sell books, which is fine, as it is what they do. What happens after the book is sold means nothing to them.

I think that email support has helped many BE players over the years, as the book can obviously be misinterpreted. For example, I suspect that several players who regularly post in the BE forum here would never have appeared here without the email support. It makes a difference.

Does the forum fill some of that role? You bet it does! As the forum continues to expand through the thoughtfulness, caring, and energy of the members, I foresee a time when my email support will virtually be unnecessary. I am not egotistical enough to think that I am the only one who can offer good BE advice. But I am egotistical enough to believe that I am usually the best resource for BE problem solving, primarily because I have seen more students and have more years experience in dealing with embouchure-related issues.

BE is obviously hot on the TH. However, some of you guys, in your enthusiasm, forget that the TH is the tiniest sliver of the trumpet world, perhaps less than one hundredth of one percent. The vast, vast majority of the players and teachers in the world are perfectly happy with status quo methods, and most will strongly resist anything that appears to be different. The only thing that will truly change this is the success of those who do the BE method, one player at a time.

So, as far as I can tell, the email support from me must continue.

Another issue for me is trust. You may have noticed that I completely support the efforts of Bert Lochs in doing BE-related seminars in Europe, and his efforts in doing a BE FAQ. What you haven't seen are the long - mostly enjoyable! - emails between he and I regarding legal and other issues. After years of lengthy communication, I feel that I know Bert very well. He is a man of integrity, and I trust him to have the best interests of players at heart. I feel the same about Ko de Rooij, Bruce Lee, Michael Camilleri, Ole Utnes, and many others here.

If any of these guys want to translate the BE book, I would at least consider it, as I have a degree of confidence in their ability to handle email support, and I have been regularly communicating with each of them for several years.

After years of business experience, I am aware of the pitfalls of entering into loose agreements with people who I don't know very well. Enthusiasm and good wishes are nice things, but that can fade over time. I am more interested in character, and how people think, and that takes time to understand.

So, if you remain interested in helping with a future translation, then I welcome your support. But, because of the nature of the beast, it may take a while before a finished product is ready.

Thanks to everybody who has contributed to an international understanding of BE. Eventually, we all may get what we want here.

Jeff

[kerouack]

I agree. Making a translation is difficult cause the person need to know about BE, about trumpet playing, and both languages. Futhermore like you dont speak german or spanish you need to trust a lot that person.
It would be good too if we can generate a Be movement in our countries similar to in USA, with forums, answering mails, helping people.

[mcamilleri]

Well, I'm one that likely would have died without Jeff's email support. Although, I will tell you all that his answers were almost always far less detailed than you get here on the forum.

Jeff, you are following a very different path from your predecessors, like Claude Gordon, Maggio, Callet, Clarke, Stevens, Caruso, Adams Farkas etc. Most great trumpet teachers of the past have failed to successfully communicate their methods through a book or similar media. For most, only long-term lessons in person gave a good chance of success. Not to be disrespectful, but most of these great teachers have passed away or retired, and many of their books are out of print or not generally available. Most trumpet players have never even heard of Claude Gordon, Maggio etc. Most are 'taught' the flat chin Farkas embouchure by imitating it's gross appearance, and not it's mechanics, as their teachers don't understand it. What a mess!

I really do hope that your strategy succeeds in the long run. If a method dies when the author retires, then what was the point?

Michael
_________________
Alpha Angles
Besson Loyalist

[Bob Fox]

Jeff:

Thank you for your selfless dedication to us trumpet players out here. Eventhough I want you to be as financially successful as is possible, it is refreshing to witness your dedication to the trumpet student and, ultimately, better music. Thank you for having your priorities straight.

Bob Fox
_________________
Bob Fox
1972 King Silver Flair
Northern Brass 64*****
GR 65*C

[oj]

Jeff,

I think it is really difficult to make a good translation of BE.

If members of this forum can help others here, like with the translation into Spanish the other day, that's a good thing.

I also think that making Bert's FAQ into a few other languages is ok. Then those of us that know a bit of that language can have a look and maybe help. I have been doing a lot of translation (between Norwegian and English) so I know a bit of the problems involved. Here is one example from the German FAQ. How did he translate "Balanced Embouchure" ?

Like this: Der Balancierte Ansatz.

The first part is similar (Balancierte = Balanced), but not the second.

For fun, try to put Ansatz into Babelfish http://world.altavista.com/ and choose: German to English.

What did you get? beginning

Of course, there are other translations of that word (in a larger dictionary)
- perhaps more like: "the start of the tone" (when talking about a wind player). But "Ansatz" and "Embouchere" differ in meaning - Embouchure is a more complex term (as far as I can see).

Ole

[uli]

[oj]

Uli,

I'm not questioning your translation (I think it is great - good work!) - just pointing out that there is a difference between those terms (there is no "mouth" in the term "an"-"satz"). I know the Germans use "Ansatz" like those in US use "Chops".

About embouchure (to quote from an article I wrote some years ago):

[Hugo]

Words can have many different meanings in a language. For technical terms like 'embouchure' it happens very often, that an existing word is used to cover the (new) technical item. 'Ansatz' is a nice demonstration for that. The word obviously existed and was used to cover the aspect 'embouchure'also, when need arised.

For words like this, it is best to have a native speaker, with a solid background in trumpet playing. An other choice which can be made, is to maintain the existing english term. For example, don't translate 'Balanced embouchure' but maintain the english term.

(translation in dutch of Balanced embouchure is difficult. embouchure stays the same, we use that word also, but balanced may be translated to 'gebalanceerde' or 'evenwichtige' or maybe some other word. But 'gebalanceerde' is not a very good Dutch word and 'evenwichtige' means: something in equilibrium... so one may question this translation. I guess this is why Bert choose not to translate it in his FAQ.)
_________________
Hugo
http://www.geocities.com/hugovalk (in Dutch)

[uli]

I like this kind of discussions . They add to my knowledge and train to express more precise what you mean.

Attack is normally not a possible translation for Ansatz. That would be Einsatz or Anstoß.
Yes, in many cases it is the best to leave the english term and give an explicatory note what it means exactly. This also points back to the roots of the methodology. But I tell you another reason why I like the term "Der balancierte Ansatz": Beside of 'The balanced embouchure' you could also translate it with 'The balanced approach'.
Not the worst title either.

I understand very well the points Jeff has made. The best would be to find a trumpet teacher who is confident and familiar with the method. The problem is, they are rare. Most pedagogues have a strict concept they are following. So they are not very ready to jump full heartedly on a new train. And of course legal issues are always tricky. Different copyright laws in different countries, changing situations for the partners. I would certainly not trust any partnership where the mutual profit isn't clearly expressed.

All the best
Uli
_________________

[oj]

Uli and Hugo,

Good discussion!

Btw, the Roll-Out in BE is "derived" (via Callet) from the German French Horn embouchure of Einsetzen. It was used by the low horn players (when natural horn was used).

In that school they also used Ansetzen - the high horn players. Not a full Roll-In (in BE-speak) but it was a more firm setting.

With Einsetzen you put the mouthpiece "in" (the lower) lip - with Ansetzen you put the mouthpiece "on" the lip.

When the valve horn arrived (mid 1800), this school was "defunct." A horn player with a valve horn was supposed to have a complete range(both low and high).

Ole

[shastastan]

Thanks for your post, Jeff. It really cleared up quite alot, IMHO. I'm one of those guys who suggested getting the translations done for sales. With your response, I learned that you have real integrity concerning your "method" and teaching of it to others. Integrity is the most expensive thing that you may ever have to pay for.

This forum has been just as important to me as your book. I thank everyone on here including rookies like me who ask questions. Without this forum, I probably would have just stopped BE from discouragement. I have learned so much from reading all the posts and enjoyed the learning process through them as well. I live in the boonies and there aren't even any trumpet teachers around here. I'm doing BE on my own but there may be some advantages of retention in learning by self-discovery. For one thing, I won't be able to use a teacher as a "crutch". Another time I read a comment from you saying that you wanted all who bought the book to have support via questions, etc..I had to ask myself, "Well, where does that leave you, Stan?" The answer was, after reading this forum for awhile, in good hands (on the forum).

I see from the above that certain terms may be difficult to translate from English. It works the other way as well. I used to speak pretty fluent Japanese and there are some terms that cannot be literally translated because one must know both history and culture to get the terms in the proper perspective. I really applaud all the folks who are trying to do these translations to retain the author's meaning with accuracy.

Finally, your book's double-tonguing presentation is the most succint, clear, and pratical way to learn it that I have ever seen. I'm actually learning how to do it! Thanks for everything, Jeff.

Stan

[dizzy_piano]

Hello Herrschaften,

Uli is absolutely right!
Embouchure in Germany is Ansatz.
Ansatz is a word with a wide range of meanings dependent on context.
It could mean strength and attack and also the other things like physical
and physiological affairs or sound.
There is no other word.
But the better translation for BE is not "Der balancierte Ansatz" but
"Der ausgewogene Ansatz".

regards
Paul

[kerouack]

I think in spanish is easier "Embocadura balanceada".

[PowerSpectrum]

Uli wrote:

[oj]

Michel

.. is adding to the"confusion" - which kind of prove my point that translation is rather difficult.

Perhaps we should keep "Balanced Embouchure" if we translate and try to explain it in a foot note? After all we also use the abrevitation BE

BE smart!

Ole

When I wrote my essay for Pops book, I also found out what Michel say - that the common intepretation of "embouchure" in France is mouthpiece.