Playing/Learning 8th Note Lines

Xenoman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1206

When I improvise, my ideas tend to come in short bursts consisting mostly of quarter notes with a few eighth notes thrown in here and there. I am trying to add more walking 8th note lines, something that lasts 4 bars or more. I have a few stock licks that I know in all keys that fall into this category and I've added a few variations to that. Is it just a matter of learning more of them? Break out Jerry Coker's Jazz Patterns book and get to work?

Also, right now when I improvise I don't think about that stuff - if it comes out, great. If not - I usually don't sweat it. When did this type of complexity start to become natural for you and not something you had to think about? When did you begin to hear these lines and then execute them on your horn immediately?

As always - thanks for the advice!

Jansu · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:56 am Post subject:

I've hit a similar plateau and been stuck there for a while now. Maybe its not really as much of an issue as we make of it, but I feel I want to develop my playing towards playing longer melodic phrases. I've taken tunes I know, and just restricted myself to 8th notes and rests. Just play 8th notes until you have to breath. You know the changes, scales, chords, patterns, licks, whatever. Just play phrases for as long as you can, dont get stuck on 'does it sound good or not'. Once you get used to playing really long phrases, you will start to hear longer phrases as well. In the end you can play long phrases that are gorgeous. And get your phrases from solos you love, not from Patterns for Jazz.
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downdawg · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Jan 2005 Posts: 117

Hey Xenoman,

I am humbly saying the things below as someone who is just on the cusp of playing some pretty decent solos once in a while.

TonySwartz · Veteran Member Joined: 03 Sep 2002 Posts: 487

PH

swinger_006 · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:01 pm Post subject:

I second the notion of checking out lots of Clifford. Almost everything I learned about playing 8th-note lines was by transcribing some of those beautiful ideas that Brownie plays.

In his solos, you can clearly dissect a patchwork of cells and patterns within the bigger breadth of the 8th note sweeps. When you are first creating 8th note lines it may just be scalar running, or, patched-together ii-V-I phrases. Etc, Etc. Eventually you will be able to move fluidly in this fashion.

A big help for me was learning that same thing- ii-V-I patterns, two counts for each chord. This gives you four 8ths for each change. Move down and back up simple voiceled arpeggiations of each chord; move from a determined chord tone up of down in a scalar way; use chromaticism to "buy time" getting to a goal target note. At the beginning, it's all about patterns.

Two years ago I was boggled by the way players could weave 8th note lines- now I'm pretty good at it myself and it's a tool in my arsenal of personal expression. It will come to you too, but you have to find the way it clicks for you.
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mark936 · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:24 pm Post subject:

clifford's Jordu, is that the one with the great eighth note solo lines?

Patterns for Jazz-- anybody else think this book is only good for sax players? buy a book written by a trpt player.

IMHO

JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR · Heavyweight Member Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Posts: 1154

I like that Coker book primarily for the jazz theory. It's not a great
patterns collection for trumpeters... but there are some pretty good
preliminary type patterns. This is the kind of material that gets you
acquainted with the scales and arpeggios in an organized way. Only
about 5% of the licks would likely have a chance of actually making
it into most people's repetoirs, but that's about par for any patterns
collection. Great theory, great rudimentary patterns... but probably
not the greatest source of usable jazz trumpet improv material.

Best sources of patterns are typically transcription books and actual
jazz tunes as PH said. When one has the ability to "hear" licks in his
own mind, he should transcribe those. This is often overlooked. Just
sing, and record, and transcribe the material that comes out of you!

That is the real you... and learning this material will allow you to play
what you're really hearing. These ideas will always come to you over
and over again.

If you don't hear melodic ideas you should probably be listenning to
more jazz each day... The licks start to come bubbling up out of you
all by themselves!! Listen allot, then transcribe the material you sing
without any regard for theory whatsoever. Then you can really learn
how to play WHAT YOU HEAR! To me nothing could possibly be more
satisfying...

Tom in Texas, J-P-C

thenewboogaloo · Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:42 am Post subject:

It sounds like you essentially want to be able to play bebop easier? Rather than memorizing 'licks', get an idea of what you want to sound like in your head and then go from there! If you want to PLAY 8th note lines, you have to be able to HEAR 8th note lines. What I mean is, when I'm working on a tune, a lot of the work gets done in my head, not on the horn. I'm constantly singing bebop in my head and coming up with ideas, whether it be at home, work, or wherever! I simply use my right thumb, and VOILA, I have a practice surface for my fingers. I mean, what you play originates from your brain, so it makes sense that you start there....at least to me

Put it this way: if you can't sing continuous 8th note lines in your head over say, a blues, then you're approaching this thing from the wrong angle! LISTENING is absolutely key.. If you want to improve your 8th note lines, I strongly advise you get the black clifford brown book...the one that has pretty much all of his recorded solos. In middle school, when I was starting to improvise I learned a bunch of clifford solos, giving me a sort of 'bebop foundation'...anyway, just a thought.

I don't know if that helps any, but that's how I think about jazz/improvisation and it seems to be working alright for me! Let your ears be your guide! (cheesy I know, but so true..)

TrentAustin · Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:01 am Post subject:

"copied from my response on TM yesterday in case you didn't catch it there"

Eric,

I found that as I worked personally on bebop scales, bop lines from the masters, enclosures, and variants of the general bebop language it gave my improvising a lot more fluidity to spurt out 8th and 16th note lines. I really think the benefits from learning bebop such as muscle memory will help build "cartilage" connecting powerful melodic statements and empty parts of your solos you didn't want to be there.

If you want a good place to start the David Baker Book on the Bebop scales is excellent! Jerry Bergonzi also has a fantastic volume out calledthe "jazz line" I think. I also recommend transcribing Bird/Bud Powell/Diz/Clifford Brown/Fats Navarro/Kenny Dorham etc etc etc and assimilating a lot of their "power/finesse" with each players improvisational dexterity. I especially love the OmniBook and Clifford Brown complete transcription book. Start at the source with Bird in my opinion! It just doesn't get any better.

Sorry for the ramblings, I hope it helps!

Best,

Trent
www.trentaustin.com (new improv. site coming soon!)
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Xenoman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1206

You guys are fabulous. There are some great replies here. I wanted to comment on a few of them...

First off - lots of Clifford suggestions. I listen to a lot of Clifford but man... he moves so fast and it is extremely intimidating. Sounds like I need to suck it up and give it a go. Tiny Capers will be first since that may be the most approachable for me at this point.

I laughed outloud on the comment about Cokers patterns for jazz and sax players... guess who suggested it to me? A tenor sax player that I play with regularly! I will admit that it has been great for learning my major/minor scales and arpeggios. I have gotten much better in that regard since working with it. I also like the fact that they do not write all the scales out for me. I have to work a lot out mentally in advance... always good to use the noodle.

PH · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Thanks!

Billy B · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:47 am Post subject:

Pat,

You should make this a sticky.
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PH · Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:

Good idea. Gonna do it now...

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3823

A little off topic, as well as adding the disclaimer that I make no claims at being a heavy jazz improviser. Nevertheless, I wanted to mention a thought on the Coker Patterns book that was mentioned a couple of times. I learned to improvise by ear by way of listening to recordings and imitating licks and so forth. For many years I couldn’t read chord symbols much beyond the roots and 3rds, and even that was tough when the tempo moved along at a fast clip. That’s where the Coker book came in handy for me. He lays out very simple little patterns in a graduated manner that more or less forces you to quickly develop chord tone recognition. Of course, later in the book he moves to linear patterns involving longer stretches of common chord structures. I never seriously thought of using these patterns as a kind of lick thesaurus. However, I would recommend the book to those who might be lacking skills in sight-reading chord structures. Putting a metronome to this stuff raises the bar too.

Larry

jimmyjazz1968 · Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks!

There are a few players who play Clifford-type language but don't play quite so technically demanding content. Maybe you should check out those guys. Blue Mitchell is my favorite for this. Donald Byrd can be good, too. Also, don't overlook sax players. Lou Donaldson is greatly under-rated IMHO and provides a great source of "meat & potatoes" 8th note bop vocabulary.

Alot of great suggestions on this board! Not just alot of B.S., but some really good approaches. I studied with Donald Byrd for a good year, and he was always walking around with a musical notebook full of ideas-some eighth note things, and some not He (and Blue Mitchell/Miles/Chet et al)got me into thinking more melodically than technical. Blue Mitchell did not have the greatest technique, nor Chet Baker, yet they are 2 of my favorite jazz players. They learned how to play "themselves" with the technique they had. Someone made a great comment about "hearing" the lines..If you can't sing it, play what you cansing and hear! I have been trying to move away from eigth note patterns..(Though I have been using John McNeils Book-THE ART OF JAZZ TRUMPET-alot lately- which emphasizes eighth notes for the purpose of alt fingerings and articulations) I have a jazz fusio group on the side-rock, funk, hip hop-jazz type- In some of the tunes like funk, I use more rhythmic elements and motifs to solo. Alto of times being more melodic.. When I blow on cherokee, I am surely playing more "rehearsed" stuff--and if I haven't practiced alot-holding on for dear life sometimes!!!!!
Listen to vocalists--Ella in particular...I strive to play more like singers now. (Check out Mark Murphy as well-good use of rhythmic and vocaliztions!)
Jerry Coker's book is ok to get some vocabulary "extra help", but Clifford and the other mention are the 'real" teachers!!!!!!!
Peace....................
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sweets · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Jan 2005 Posts: 337

Jimmyjazz,

I know a lot of people say Chet Baker didn't have a lot of technique, but I have been listening to some of his 50's stuff with a quartet with Russ Freeman, and am amazed at what a nimble player he was. He could play fast and very clean -- beautiful, cliche-free lines -- and he cornered like a ferrari. He was't so nimble after those guys busted his mouth, but after he first played with him in LA, Charlie Parker would tell musicians back East that "there's a little white cat who's gonna eat you all up. " He had enormous talent and the biggest ear in the business.

jimmyjazz1968 · Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:54 am Post subject:

Sweets.I was not trying to insult Chet Baker at all. He is one of my favorite players. Although his technique during the 50's and early 60's was overlooked many times, his chops (physical chops NOT musical) did not compare with the likes of Dizzy and Clifford etc. I did not mean he had bad technique. I respect players like him more, because they did not do it with range-etc, he did it with musicality. That was my only point. I understand Chet's importance...Trust me...
Peace
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EddieLewis · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:53 am Post subject:

Eric,

The key to achieving what you're talking about is repetition. The things I have "down" are things I've repeated literally thousands of times in the practice sessions.

There are two problems inherent to this kind of repetition. The first problem is that, if you're doing enough repetition on each of the licks or patterns you're practicing, then there's not a lot of time for variety. You can't cover all the bases so you have to pick and choose those things to practice which you think are most relevant to how you want to sound. Don't practice a ii-V-I lick just because it's in a book. Practice ONLY those things which will take you in the direction you want to go. If you don't like it, don't waste your time on it.

The other problem is that practicing unrelated licks and ideas will cause you to gravitate towards playing those licks in your solo. Playing practiced licks, in a solo, on purpose, is a BIG no no. Once again, it's important practice related materials so that there is a blend of ideas that will ultimately turn the music into your own. This blending of ideas is VERY important.....a very important part of developing your own style.