So Now What?

[MF Fan]

Once a person's "type" is accurately assessed, what are they susposed to do with the information? I reread the Encyclopedia recently, and believe I'm a IIIB, but don't recall reading anything about what I'm supposed to do differently than any other type. Am I correct in thinking about this as a person's "type" is innate, based on their physical characteristics? So once you know what type you are, I assume you're supposed to play in a manner that doesn't work against this innate set-up. As a IIIB, what should I be doing?

[hairy james]

M.F.Fan, If you have typed yourself correctly and truly are a IIIB, then you would pull down to ascend and push up to descend. I think it would be a good idea to read my post about the track of the inner embochure, it's on this forum listed under "Diagonal Pivot?" To really be successful at the pivot system you need to know bolth your pivot and angular motion. Let us know how you are doing. Good Luck, Chris

[DSR]

1) Go and read the "Quirks of the Types" article on the Pivotalk website...check out the IIIB part.
2) Read the "Pivot Classification Two As Presented During My Orientation And Analysis Period" part of the encyclopedia. (near the end) This describes your IIIB pivot in detail.
3) Get practicing his routines.
4) Read the important/relevant parts of the encyclopedia again. From what I've heard Reinhardt liked to make his students read sections of the encyclopedia over and over again to engrave his principles into their minds.

-B

[spanky]

hey chris,

i misunderstood your quote about pulling up and down but rich willey, the great one straitened me out. i just wanted to post this so nobody else misunderstands. of course, i'm pretty easy to confuse. when you say up and down, you mean mpc placement, right?? not up and down on the horn??

[hairy james]

SPANKY !!! NO, NO, NO,NO,NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT MOUTHPIECE PLACEMENT, BUT MUSCULAR TENSION!!!!!! THE RIM NEVER LEAVES OR MOVES FROM YOUR CHOPS. THE RIM AND THE FLESH DIRECTLY UNDER THE RIM MOVE AS ONE UNIT EITHER IN A PUSH UP OR PULL DOWN MOTION. SO FROM LOW 'G' TO HIGH 'G' YOUR PLACEMENT STAYS THE SAME, THE ONLY THING THAT CHANGES IS THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSCULAR TENSION. EITHER UP OR DOWN. Sorry for all the capitals but as Nixon used to say;" I JUST WANT TO MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR." Any questions ? Chris

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-09-30 22:02 ]

[spanky]

chris,

so when i move my horn down i'm actually moving my muscles up?? and when i move my horn up, i'm moving my muscles down??

[BeboppinFool]

[hairy james]

Spanky, Correct pivoting, and this is as basic as I can make it, is simply PUSHING or PULLING the lips into the path of the airstream. The rim and the flesh directly under the rim move as ONE UNIT in either a push up or pull down motion. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and at the risk of sounding like an idiot, I want you to try this; Make a fist with your left hand, not a real tight fist just normal, now take your right index finger and press the tip of it on to the top of your left fist, make sure that you press hard enough with your finger so that it doesn't slide, now push and pull the flesh on the top of your fist that is directly under your index finger, make sure you are not sliding your finger up and down but pushing and pulling the flesh directly under your finger up and down. Do you see how the tip of your index finger and flesh directly beneath it move together as ONE UNIT. This is similar to correct pivoting, except instead of a firmly clenched fist and a index finger, you have a firmly formed embochure and the rim of your mouthpiece. You get the picture?........ I'm not sure I want to sign this one........ One more thing. Remember, all of the movement (pushing and pulling NOT sliding the mouthpiece) should be slightly exaggerated until the pivot "takes hold". After that all movement is kept to a minimum. If you were to watch any of Doc's more experienced students you would see little or no movement over their entire range. Rich, don't worry you are not a hack....

[ This Message was edited by: hairy james on 2002-10-01 11:19 ]

[spanky]

no MR. WILLEY, i havn't read the book yet. a fulcrum?? i'll be right back.

i'm new at this, i have one day of experience! so EXCUSE MEEEEEE if i am not using the correct terms and on the same train-of-thought. i'm still thinking Spanky Chops and trying to convert to Reinhart Chops!!

ok, i feel better now. right now, until i get this down, i think end-of-the-bell and not mouthpiece/lips(as one unit) when thinking up and down. so i'm trying to get this straightened out first before i can think about anything else.

rich, i'm still trying to get the scoop on picking up the car. might end up being a family outing to cherokee. i'll let you know.

[ This Message was edited by: spanky on 2002-10-01 12:08 ]

[scream]

If I may interject to espouse another "pivot-like" demonstration (when I'm sitting next to my students, they get the idea of the pivot. But this is a GROSS demonstration) that may help. Place your index finger perpindicular to your lips. Now, with your finger (pretend your finger is the mouthpiece) push your lips up and down along your teeth and gums. That's a pivot. Remember.....I'm repeating what has been said because it's important......the lips and mouthpiece move AS ONE along the teeth and gum track according to your individual pivot. In the "Pivot Stabilizer", you use your pivot to change the pitch (like second line G to low C etc). It's exaggerated at first so it will sink in, and like it says in the directions, "when you leave this page-FORGET IT". Also remember, "Do not use your pivot for lesser degrees than a perfect fourth."
(Sorry, I've been gone for a while)



_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA


"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2002-10-01 17:58 ]

[pair of kings]

I don't know if this is the right place for my question. One of my students mentioned something to me today. it was her second lesson. Last week she had braces. This week they are gone. Her comment was that without the braces that her lips were gliding on her teeth. She said she noticed that things were moving as she played the horn.
This makes me wonder about a couple things.
How likely is it that players who havn't been taught to pivot do it 'naturally'?
I never had braces, but, does it make sense that braces would disrupt the pivot?

[Wilktone]

This MPG link might help clarify a bit about what a pivot entails, at least as how I do it. I had it filmed to use as a demonstration of the pivot, but it's also interesting to watch because it also shows a common problem many have (including myself) with the pivot.

BTW, I'm sorry I'm not a trumpet player, but the motion would be similar for me on trumpet, just would not sound good and wouldn't be as wide a range to see.

http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken/embouchure/octave_slurs_upstream.MPG

If you watch the distance of the motion (I pivot down for high notes and up for low notes) you will see that I use much more motion for the extreme low end than the extreme high end. I've noticed that a lot of upstream types (like myself, low mouthpiece placement and more lower lip in the mouthpiece) have this problem with the low register. It can choke off the sound or make the tone thin. Many players do the same thing, but with the high register. You can see them reach a point in their high register and switch directions, probably because they were pivoting too much and had to back track to make it work.

You really can't see much of an angle change while I pivot, but I'm aware that there is a *slight* one. When I descend it feels that I apply more pressure to my lower lip and my horn angle gets slightly lower. It is reversed for the upper register - slightly more pressure on the top lip and the horn angle gets a bit higher.

[scream]

I tell my students that they are going to have more problems getting their braces off than when they were put on. The formation of the embouchure is dicatated by the braces and moving teeth as well as being held in place by the metal in their mouth. When they get them off the student finds that they have more trouble controlling their lips, not to mention an overall weakness in the embouchure. I TRY to get my students buzzing (without the mouthpiece), braces or not. However, if they haven't been doing it on a regular basis, I let them know that this will be the most important time to get with it. And I REALLY push it BEFORE they get them off, hopefully, to shorten the recovery time.

It is my opinion, and I daresay, most of Reinhardt student opinions that all brass players pivot to some extent. Most just don't know it. Your student may be learning an important lesson....but get them buzzing (without the mouthpiece) to strengthen the chin and mouth corners so they can get that pivot in control.

I hope this helps......the other guys may want to weigh in on this.



_________________
Paul Garrett
Lawrenceville, GA


"Wherever you go....there you are."
Buckaroo Bonzai

[ This Message was edited by: scream on 2002-10-02 07:35 ]

[walter]

Before I try to offer any advice, I'd like to say that, although I studied with Doc for many years, I don't consider myself to be an expert on Reinhardt's teachings. That being said:

Spanky, and perhaps others, seem to envision the pivot as some type of rocking on a fulcrum ... thus the bobbing of the bell.

I think that "pushing and pulling" in upward and downward directions can best be thought of in the manner that Doc taught me. The mouthpiece, riding with the lips, follows a track in a more-or-less upward/downward direction as the player ascends or decends. For some players, the mouthpiece/lip formation moves upward along the track as we ascend, and for other players it goes in the opposite direction. The direction depends on the "type" of embouchure that we have. I am not even considering variations of individual players with unique anatomic differences.

The Pivot [riding the track] is something that every brass player uses when playing correctly for his/her type. Doc used to give very long first lessons to tire out a player, in the belief [I think] that the player would reach a point at which he/she would have to fall into an efficient approach ... although a "lip-twist" might develop on a player with dry chops. A lip-twist is a bad thing, in which embouchure tension is developed by rotating the mouthpiece on dry chops.

As far as pivoting along the track, Doc told me that the movement up or down became noticeable at intervals of a 4th or more. When I was learning the Spiderweb Routine, he told me not to think about the pivot until I moved by a 4th. At that point, when I was learning to pivot, Doc had me overemphasize the pivot in order to get a feeling for the appropriate amount of push or pull [riding the track].

During the period when a player is consciously learning to pivot, movements often get over-emphasized. This approach helps a player to focus on the feelings in the chops. Eventually, the chops get the Big Idea, and pivoting is less conscious.

Again, I don't want to misrepresent Doc. My memory is not the most reliable part of my psyche. I am writing this post as a way of representing how to pivot. This is my take on pivoting, and whatever I say should be taken as a subjective approach to Doc's teaching.

walter

[BeboppinFool]

[Wilktone]

[Wilktone]

I just remembered that I actually have another video already uploaded. This trumpet player is my student who I've had switch from playing as a type IIIB to a type IV. This MPEG was taken two weeks into his embouchure type switch. I had not yet taught him how to pivot, but you can see he is doing this already on his own. This particular lesson was the first time that he had discovered his "sweet spot" and that he could play above a high C (he just couldn't resist going back into those whistle tones after playing this connection exercise).

http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken/videos/tpt_connection_pivot.MPG

In today's lesson, three weeks after this video was taken, he was able to go from a G an octave above the top space of the staff and slur all the way down to low C with a focused sound. He has become much more consistent on finding the proper mouthpiece placement, and his pivot is working well. Thanks again for everyone's advice on how to help him!

Dave
_________________
wilktone.com

[Wilktone]

Here is an MPEG of me slurring between middle and low B flats, which shows the pivot a little clearer. My pivot classification is Reinhardt's Pivot Classification Two, meaning I push up towards the nose when I descend and pull down towards the chin to ascend. My pivot "track" is also at a diagonal, I pull down and slightly to the left and push up and slightly to the right.

http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken/videos/pivot.MPG

Dave
_________________
wilktone.com