What do the top of the line players say?

[jjlist]

OK ,
Correct me if I am wrong fellow trumpeteers. I know I can count on you!
How come you never hear the top players discuss what they are doing with their chops when they play? I'll tell you why.
They:
1. dont know
2. dont care
3. dont want to know.
You see the great ones have found "A" way that works for them. And you cant apply that to other players. Because of all our infinte differences as human. Please show me some of the greats discussing their chops to prove me wrong. I only ever see teachers and lesser players discuss it like they have discovered the correct science of playing.
Bring it on.
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[razeontherock]

I totally agree, even more emphatically. Show me one great that produced a child that could play trumpet. Allen Vizzutti might just be the first, but he's just plain exceptional. And he does everything conventionally, by the "book." (And it works!)
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[gillie89]

Regarding children of "greats", I believe Vince DiMartino has a son who can really play. I was at an ITG conference in Richmond, VA some years ago and I went to one of Vince's classes. When someone asked him about his high range I remember him saying it was never a problem for him. That was about it. The rest of the class was about being more musical in playing trumpet.

Gillie

[_dcstep]

David Bilger seems to understand what's going on, but I agree that's fairly rare.

Dave
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[Nonsense Eliminator]

jjlist --

I agree to a certain extent with your observations, but I disagree with some of your conclusions.

I don't think it's entirely accurate to say that great players don't want to know what's going on with their chops. Many don't. However, in most cases I would say that it's more accurate to say that they don't want to think about it while they're playing. I realize that this probably seems like splitting hairs. However, what this distinction leads to is the difference between, "Duh, I just blow in the little end," and, "I have come to the conclusion that I don't need to think about my chops in order to play the trumpet."

I would say that trumpet players, of any level, can mostly be divided into three categories: those who think about their chops, those who have never had to think about their chops, and those who have decided (or been taught) not to think about their chops. It's tempting to regard "great" players as belonging to the second category, but I think that's less common than most people imagine. Contrary to what many people seem to think, not having to think about your chops is completely teachable.

In other words, many players -- of all levels -- do not choose to think about their chops because they have concluded that this is the most efficient way to learn to play the trumpet. For the most part, those individuals choose to focus instead on a mental sound image. Yes, this is simply "'A' way that works for them." However, it's a way that accounts for "all our infinte differences as human" because instead of mandating certain actions for the embouchure, it allows the individual's subconscious to sort out what is required to achieve the desired sound. And I can think of plenty of great players who would describe this as "the correct science of playing." The difference is that rather than dwelling on the rather murky and inexact "science" of embouchure function, they are focussing on the science of the control mechanism -- the brain.
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[Nespy]

[davidk]

[jjlist]

[trpt.hick]

Good players don't really think about their chops when playing music because they are concentrating on the SOUND and MUSICAL DIRECTION of what they are producing.

Good teachers can think about chops when NOT playing, but often (hopefully!) turn off the chops switch in their brain when playing the horn because they then need to concentrate on the music.

I studied for a while with Herseth, Voisin, and Ghitalla. Each knew quite a bit about chops but seldom talked about it. Whenever i asked questions concerning mouthpieces, chops, chops exercises and approaches, etc., I was always surprised by how much they knew! I sometimes wondered why they didn't say more about these things unless pressed to do so. I think it is because the music comes first and these chop-type things don't need to come up unless problems are preventing the player from expressing themselves on the horn like they are intending.

There are so many types of embouchures and development systems that it seems endless. Maybe it is! Here are a few main factors the way I see it:

1. Length of top lip vs. length of upper front teeth - This will have a huge effect on mouthpiece placement.

2. Straightness of front teeth (upper and lower) - This will have a huge impact on angle of the horn up/down and sideways.

3. Teeth occlusion - If there is an overbite of a quarter inch or more (like 90% of the people), the lower jaw will need to be thrusted forward a bit in order for the front teeth to be fairly well aligned. This will allow the bell angle to be reasonably horizontal and will provide (usually) the best lips alignment for a brilliant, resilient buzz.

Bringing the jaw forward means that the temporo mandibular joints (TMJ) located just in front of the ears will be out of their sockets. Therefore, the skull can no longer support the lower jaw and the mouthpiece pressure (which can be up to 35 lbs. even with top professional players!!!). Because the player now has a "floating jaw," the lower jaw will have to be supported mainly by the chewing muscles located near the back of the jaw.

When playing the trumpet, a floating jaw embouchure REQUIRES the muscles just BELOW the corners of the lips to firm up, creating sort of a "bulldog" facial expression when the lower jaw is moved forward to play properly.

Players with floating jaws include Herseth, Ferguson, Smith, Stevens, Ghitalla, Sandoval, Marsailis, Lindemann, Clarke, and many others. (Probably 90% of the pros!)

Players that do NOT have floating jaws commonly angle the horn down a little more than usual (but not always) and have very firm CORNERS. These players include Crisara, DiMartino, Tarr, Andre, Severinsen, Dokshitzer, Alpert, Mase, and many others, too.

Although most chop building exercises will work for everyone, the APPROACH will be different, depending on whether or not the player has a floating jaw or not. For instance:

LONG TONES - These seem to work best for people that do not have a floating jaw. Long isometric exercises where there is no movement at all will tend to cause a bit of a pinched tone for floating jaw players and can become too tiring. This is why Clarke preferred "moving long tones" such as in his Technical Studies book.

PEDAL TONES - Players which utilize their lip CORNERS the most tend to like the manner (approach) as explained by Louis Maggio (remember the chimp photo?). These players will tend to tilt the bell DOWNWARDS when playing pedal tones. Conversly, players with a floating jaw will find it difficut (if not impossible) to play pedals LOUDLY unless they tilt the bell UPWARDS and play with an exaggerated "bulldog" face. Claude Gordon played pedals in this manner.

LIP BENDS - These seem to help floating jaw players a lot, especially when encouraged to pucker the LOWER LIP to an extreme, and point the bell up slightly. The exercises work for the other type, too.

SHAKES VS. LIP TRILLS - Floating jaw players tend to have much more success with lip trills. The other type generally has better shakes.

Now, if we take into account Doc Reinhardt's embouchure types (classifications), you will find that there are several variations on the above two categories of players. Also, take into account that lead players and piccolo trumpet players have opposite approaches to tongue arches because of the differences in sound qualities desired. We can also add in several new and worthwhile embouchure methods or approaches such as BE and TCE.

It is easy to see why many performers do not want to get into the jungle of "embouchure." As long as they have figured out their own manner of playing, they are fine. When teaching, they tend to offer their own opinions about what works for them. If that manner of playing does not work for the student, they will need to be open minded and realize that there are numerous ways to play the trumpet, and much of it depends on each person's own physical characteristics and type of music to be developed.

Too often, teachers and students do not get along because the teacher's own personal approach may not work for the student. If the teacher does not fully understand other approaches, the teacher will begin to think that the student isn't trying hard enough. Likewise, the student will begin to feel that the teacher doesn't know what they are talking about because it isn't working. This leads to the student moving on to another teacher, being even more confused, and bad-mouthing the teacher to everyone they talk to. It also means that the teacher will have a very low percentage of students that are successful.

So, in summary.....I feel that SOME THINGS WORK FOR SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME, BUT NOTHING CAN WORK FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME. I just hope that people will not be too short-sighted and realize this.

Dave Hickman (Oh yes, I have a floating jaw.)

[JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR]

Awesome post just above by Mr. Hickman!

I wish all the guys who keep posting that there's "only one way to do this
and only one way to do that" could have points deducted from their final
scores! There are as many different kinds of embouchures in the world as
there are people. (I'm lucky they don't take points away from those who
exeggerate!) Well... there are at least several main types of embouchure,
and they each work in very different ways.

Tom in Texas

[Chris4]

I heard somewhere that at classes taught by Doc Seversin would always end,"and that's what works for me so if it doesn't work for you too bad". Anyone know anything about that?
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[trpt.hick]

I've heard Doc's clinic lots of times. The first half of that sentence is correct.

[Chris4]

Ok. I wasn't sure exactly what it was as I've never been to one of Doc's clinics.
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[GrumpyPe0n]

I completely agree with Mr. Hickman. My current teacher now teaches in a very metaphoric manner. We don't discuss any techincal things with my chops unless there was a major problem preventing me from playing-which has not come about. The most important aspects are the song and wind. We only get techincal about air and breathing.

When I pick up the horn I put it on my face. I don't think "ok first tighten corners, pucker lips" blah blah blah. Pick up the horn-have the sound in your head-breathe properly-boom you're golden. There is no need to be conscious of your chops and what they are doing.

[BlackVoid]

I think the great players don't think about their chops because they've already taught their muscles to react instinctively to any kind of situation. That's what all the Clarke and Arban exercises do: keep your muscles doing certain actions to the point where they become reflexive.

And you guys are forgetting one of the all-time greats: Derek Smith was a great player, and his son (I'm not even gonna say his name, I don't need to) is a god. Period.
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Steven Bailey
M.M. from UMass Amherst 2013
B.M. from Towson Univ. 2010

Assistant Principal Trumpet, Hunt Valley Symphony Orchestra
Trumpet Player, Slow Lights

[LeeC]

This is one area where the playing field is pretty level between the hacks and world class trumpet players. The advice quality from either end of the spectrum tends to run about the same.

Whether it be embouchure, high notes, endurance or other physical factors: It's mostly all bunk.

Take Maynard for instance. We all love him, but his advice to Miles Davis was near worthless. Miles asked him how it did "it" (high notes) and Maynard told him it's all in his stance. Like how the feet are placed.

Sorry Boss that wasn't a real gem of info there...

Then there's all sorts of advice on breathing technique and such but not much info that is specific to embouchure control, development and the numerous varieties of chop set-ups and related different demands each one needs in order to work their chops right.

Even the master chop "doctors" disagree. Roy Stevens dwelved into the area of physical law and came up with some important rules but his system didn't go far enough nor help players who refused to play or couldn't play with a protruded jaw set-up.

Reinhardt was cool but even he had some concepts that weren't usually helpful. That system is all so confusing sometimes. Why did he elaborate on seven or eight different tongue types? Who cares? That wasn't too productive of a study area. Great as he was he also SHOULD have realized that the tongue arch was useless.

Next is Caruso. Very good at helping a player get a syncronized set of chops. However useful even these well trained chops can be limited range wise. Also i believe a fair amount of his advocates ended up with really small tones above High C. Won't mention any names here but you'll know them by the characteristic of the bell of their horn being buried into the microphone...

Had these noted Caruso type players I have in mind (and will keep to myself) known just a tad bit about chop physics i'll bet they'd have blown rooms down with just their acoustic sound alone.

Never-the-less Caruso exercises are very useful. My guess is that if a given student could practice Caruso or something like it and apply a bare minimum knowledge of physical embouchure principles then these players would improve very rapidly. Faster than the typical rate anyway.

So what is the average, ungifted aspiring player to do?

My advice is to play the trumpet with any embouchure you want. Just avoid anything that pulls lip flesh away from the center of the mouth be it stretching or upward movement of the upper lip. Start somewhere in the middle register instead of the low and learn to maintain whole tones.

Soon afterwards find a mouthpiece that gives you a lot of endurance. That'll help you practice longer hours and facillitate quicker improvement by itself.

When practicing high tones work up to them with arpeggios and limit that kind of practice to less than fifty percent of the practice session. Get a good High C and learn how to sightread. At that point you're about 98% of the way to having the mechanics of a good lead player. the rest should come easily.

[BlackVoid]

I think it's gonna take a lot more than having a good High C and decent sightreading skills; I have a decent high F#, and great sight-reading skills, but that doesn't make me a great lead player (Even though I'm usually stuck playing lead most of the time... )

Part of it is also the mentality: if you don't have the lead player mentality, then there's no way you can lead. Plain and simple...
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Steven Bailey
M.M. from UMass Amherst 2013
B.M. from Towson Univ. 2010

Assistant Principal Trumpet, Hunt Valley Symphony Orchestra
Trumpet Player, Slow Lights

[LeeC]

[get a job]

[camelbrass]

Professor Hickman's excellent post has earned itself a permanent place on my practice room wall. Take copy and stick it in the front of your Arbans..all budding teachers and advanced students must read. Just think how much experience at a personal level it would take to accumulate that knowledge. I know that I too am a floating jaw player (by physical accident and not design) and I guess that by saying that I'm not totally oblivious to my embouchure.

It also put's a great deal of context into why TCE works for some or BE or Gordon or Rheinhardt and not others. Lee, I hear what you say about Caruso and you know a lot more about playing high notes than I do but in defense of Caruso, those players that I know are advocates are very strong players in the 'money' registers and it seems to me moreso than advocates of other systems. I like the advice about getting a good high C (we're talking an all nite high C) and learning how to site read well...you may not get the lead in the MF band but like one guy said recently you'll be able to "buy 2 tuxedos because you'll need to have one in the cleaners all the time"

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Trevor