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TAC New Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 1 Location: OH
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:49 am Post subject: Messiah on Picc |
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Is it current practice to use a picc on the Messiah D trumpet parts?
When I was in college, I bought an Eb/D trumpet for Baroque concertos and found that it worked well for Messiah if I used the D slides.
Now I do not play the concertos much, however, I do play weddings and I am using my picc tuned to A for The Trumpet Shall Sound and Hallalujah Chorus. Am I on the right track?[/i] _________________ Life is a journey, not a Destination
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trombapaul2 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Oct 2002 Posts: 1889 Location: Detroit, MI
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:54 am Post subject: |
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The best section set-up (to my ears anyway) is Picc on the 1st part and a D
trumpet on the 2nd. Both parts CAN be played on Piccs and both parts CAN
be played on D horns but it's nice to have a seperation of voices (Picc vs. D)
with a little more depth of sound in the 2nd part.
Just my $0.02
Paul _________________ "NEVER practice...ALWAYS perform" (Bud)
"NEVER look at the trombones...it only encourages them" (R. Strauss)
"What the hell does sound have to do with music?" (Charles Ives) |
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CKatOU Veteran Member
Joined: 02 May 2004 Posts: 189 Location: Hutto (near Austin), TX
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:58 am Post subject: |
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If it's "My 2 cents" and "a penny for your thoughts," you gotta think someone's making a penny.
CK |
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Cheng Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Mar 2003 Posts: 492 Location: Santa Rosa, CA (the real wine country)
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm doing the Messiah for the first time in two weeks. I am playing the second part and am a new member of the orchestra. I'll be using a D trumpet for most of the movements but if the director wants me to play "The Trumpet Shall Sound," I'll use the picc i A. So much easier. _________________ Harry Marks
Yamaha 6345HSII;Yamaha 6445HGSII, Schilke E3L, Flugel Kanstul ZKF-1525;
Cornet Conn Connstellation (1967);
Piccolo Kanstul ZKT 1520
Mouthpieces Various Monette Prana 2's
Santa Rosa Wind Symphony
SRJC Orchestra |
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Athos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 805 Location: St Louis
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:12 am Post subject: |
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I have always played either part on picc. This is partly because the D side of my Eb/D is such an unknown... I never use it! I rather like the sound with two piccs. |
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loudog Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2001 Posts: 1444 Location: Hastings, NE
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my philosophy for the horns used in Baroque music:
If there are just two trumpets, both play piccolos. If there are three, then the third player uses a D trumpet.
I don't really like the sound of just one picc and one D...i figure you might as well both play picc, to sound more similar.
Just a thought!
Louie _________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Louie Eckhardt, trumpeter
http://www.LouieEckhardt.com
Associate Professor of Music
Hastings College |
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Bill Dishman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Posts: 1174
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: Messiah on Picc/D? |
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Preferences for my are both parts on Piccolo.
2nd choice would be 1st on Picc and 2nd part on D trumpet
Two D trumpets sound too heavy in my opinion for the scoring of Messiah.
If two D's are used then the principal must be prepared to play very lightly and not with a powerful sound.
Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida |
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maccluer Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2003 Posts: 211 Location: Hong Kong
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject: Doubling |
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Don't forget the doubling issue. Lots of orchestras pay doubling for pic and not for D trumpet. That has definitely influenced my decision in the past.
Also, try to convince the conductor to let you play "Glory to God" from offstage. It drastically reduces the sitting around required for the performance. _________________ www.joshuamaccluer.com |
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nextbrassguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 1428
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Doubling |
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maccluer wrote: | Also, try to convince the conductor to let you play "Glory to God" from offstage. It drastically reduces the sitting around required for the performance. |
Good point; I'd never thougth about that.
My thought is that 1st on picc, 2nd on D is best. "Blessing and Honor" has Concert low A's in the trumpets. These are pedal C's on the picc and thus problematic. You need the one D player to get those as low G's. |
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camel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 1461 Location: holland
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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first time I played it, I played 2nd, and did it on d trumpet. No problems. 2nd time, I played also 2nd, but this time on c. Also no problems. Now I play first, on a pic, 2nd player uses pic ( and c for the part which is too low ) no problem.
It doesn't matter, as long as you listen to each other, and try to make music together. Just use the instrument you know the best. Most of the time you can adapt the best, on the instrument which is the most familiar to you. |
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bachstrad72 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 871 Location: NJ/Philly
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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I will be performing the Messiah myself this weekend. Our section is using a pic on first (myself) and a D trumpet on second. I would have prefered to use a D trumpet on this as I usually do, but a lack of time to prepare left me to throw it together on pic in a few days. I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb). Dont discount Eb until you have tried it, it actually is quite playable in the key of B and the trills are very workable. Whatever you decide, good luck! _________________ ~Perry Sutton~ |
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tjsweetlips New Member
Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 3 Location: Provo, Utah
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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I believe that two piccs are better than one. _________________ Tyler Smith
http://trumpetplayersite.com/
Last edited by tjsweetlips on Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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wvtrumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously there is no set rule, but I have always used a D trumpet for second part and a piccolo for first. Things seem to match and lay well with that set up. It all comes down to the timbre' that your conductor wants to hear and what works best for the two trumpeters. _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet. |
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brightandloud Regular Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 99 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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bachstrad72 wrote: | I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb). |
Is it possible and okayto play everything on regular old Bb or C? |
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nextbrassguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 1428
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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brightandloud wrote: | bachstrad72 wrote: | I have performed this about as many ways as there is possible (Pic in A and Bb, Bb, C, D, and Eb). |
Is it possible and okayto play everything on regular old Bb or C? |
How's your written high E on the Bb? The Messiah has two. If it is possible for you to get it right every time, and you sound okay doing it, then that should be your answer. I do find that the higher the trumpet I use on "The Trumpet Shall Sound", the better my endurance. I don't think I've ever attended a live performance where the soloist did use a picc on that one. |
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camel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 1461 Location: holland
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:40 am Post subject: |
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I think, that for sound it is better to play the first part on d or picc. the 2nd part can be done on c trumpet. But I wouldn't take a c or b-flat for the first part. Because that's a little bit too much |
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trumpetchops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 2645
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:05 am Post subject: |
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I just played it and I played second. I asked the first player what he wanted and he said he didn't care so I used D. trumpet. |
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bachstrad72 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 871 Location: NJ/Philly
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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I had to use the Bb once in a pinch as my Eb valves were knocked out of round in a gig bag. It actually doesn't sound too bad as all of the trills can be performed as lip trills sounding more like the valved trumpets natural counterpart. If you have a high E then it shouldn't be a problem, just more effort than a smaller trumpet. And I have noticed over the past few times I have seen this performed by people other than myself, the pic IS becoming the standard for "The Trumpet Shall Sound" _________________ ~Perry Sutton~ |
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nextbrassguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 1428
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2005 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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bachstrad72 wrote: | If you have a high E then it shouldn't be a problem, just more effort than a smaller trumpet. |
There is of course the slotting problem on "Worthy is the Lamb", where on a Bb, the first three pitches are G#, B, E. That B to E is a lot harder for me to get right than the section in the Hallelujah Chorus, where you play a written E major scale (with augmented 4th) up to high E. |
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trumpetmike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2003 Posts: 11315 Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Every time I have seen or played this piece, the set-up has always been 1st on a picc, 2nd on a D (apart from when using baroque trumpets, of course).
The exception being when I lived in Huddersfield and witnessed the brass band version of this piece - nobody used either a piccolo or a D trumpet - it was cornets all round
I have yet to see any first player change to a D for The Trumpet Shall Sound.
The factor that hasn't yet been mentioned is the sort of D trumpet that is being used. What I have seen used are NOT the large bell Schilke style D trumpets, every time I have seen it (or played it), the second trumpet has been using a small D trumpet (such as the Yamaha 6610, the Selmer or the old Besson model). The lighter sound matches superbly with the piccolo, yet you still have the ability to play the written low G. |
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