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CouvesDude New Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:26 am Post subject: Cheater Mouthpieces? |
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Sometimes when I am playing in a big band and have to play lead I use what most people consider a cheater mouthpiece. It is shallow and a smaller rim size than my normal 1 1/2 C. I know people don't like them becuase of diminished tone quality and smaller sound and certainly I have found this to be true in a normal register, but when I get above the high C my tone is bigger and more clear on the cheater piece than on my orchestral mouthpiece. Is this because my chops are still not properly developed or do other people find a simarlar situation too? Any comment on this would be a great help. |
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siksay Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 196
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:36 am Post subject: |
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There really is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece, use what makes the job easier. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
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The usual approach is to stay on the same rim size, but a smaller cup. If your tone is clearer on the smaller piece, you might advantages to going to a smaller I. D. for your orchestral playing too, but still on a deep cup.
How does your Bach bathtub compare to a Reeves 43? 43.5? |
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2-5-1 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 1381
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
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"cheater mouthpiece" is a term used by people who either can't play in the first place and believe that the mouthpiece is solely responsible for high range and/ or, high school students.
There is no such thing as a cheater mouthpiece. Play what gets the job done, (and what gets you called back!) _________________ www.mikesailorsmusic.com |
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Bruin Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2008 Posts: 1346 Location: L.A. area
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Cheater Mouthpieces? |
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Ha! Well, then Bobby Shew also "cheats." In one of his youtube videos, you can see him switching mouthpieces during a song. Like the other guys said, do whatever you need to do to get the job done well and sound your best. I never gave this any thought before seeing Bobby do that, but it makes good sense to me if switching mouthpieces helps you accomplish what you want/need to accomplish in a song, don't you think? _________________ '64 Conn Connstellation 38B
Jupiter 846S flugelhorn
CarolBrass Mini Pocket Trumpet
Schilke 17& 17D4d4 trumpet mpcs
Schilke 17F flugelhorn mpc
Last edited by Bruin on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CouvesDude New Member
Joined: 01 Aug 2008 Posts: 7 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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In regards to using a same size rim but shallower cup I used to us a deep cup with the same size rim as my lead mouthpiece but the sound wasn't quite as good as the 1 1/2, but I do plan on getting a 1 1/2 D or F and see how that does. Thank you all for your comments this helps me a lot. |
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Juergen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 590 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I'm guilty of previously calling it a cheater mouthpiece. However, I think it's because the person who "played" had the worst tone imaginable but could squeak high notes and thought he was hot stuff.
I basically made the shallow piece my main piece because of being lead in jazz band and not playing trumpet in any standard bands (F. Horn). I was able to get it to work for the most part tone wise. However, tounging on the low notes, G in the staff and lower, was very bad and I still haven't found away around that. However tounging is exellent really high. Anyways now I am adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.
You can make it work if you try. _________________ Go [(Blue))> |
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trpthrld Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 4816
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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2-5-1 wrote: | "cheater mouthpiece" is a term used by people who either can't play in the first place and believe that the mouthpiece is solely responsible for high range and/ or, high school students. |
right on.
Unless there's a hidden double standard here, I suppose when I switch from my usual Greg Black / Warburton 5 ES with tweaks to my Warburton 2 MD for orchestra or chamber work that I'm using a cheater mouthpiece.
yeah. it works both ways, fellas.
Yet there are times when I'll play said Black / Warburton 5 ES in chamber or orchestra situations and no one can tell a difference. Without a doubt you use the right tool for the job, but the right player can make anything work in any situation. _________________ Tim Wendt
www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=147567&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be |
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davtpt Regular Member
Joined: 16 May 2004 Posts: 50 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Cheater mpcs |
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Main main & only mpc is a 17S Giardinelli, I do latin music now, concert band,big band, etc is not around...
I make about $100-$150 a gig & I play once in a blue moon, so whatever gets the job done, if the public is happy, & if YOU'RE happy then play whatever.... |
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Young Man with a Horn Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2002 Posts: 237 Location: England
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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CouvesDude,
It sounds to me like you're being very sensible in choosing a smaller mouthpiece for your big band playing. I think there are several thousand other trumpeters that would do exactly the same thing!
It is important to use the right tools for the job. I play in a regular big band but would switch to using a bigger mouthpiece in an orchestral situation. Have faith in your decision and remember the best teacher is yourself.
Good luck! |
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trumpetninja Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Jun 2008 Posts: 175
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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I usually play my 1.5c on everything, but I do have a shallow Schilke piece that I use for the few times I play lead. I think I might try a 1.5 D or E as i feel really comfortable with the 1.5c rim. I don't like that I have to adjust my embouchure just to get a fat sound in the mid register on the Schilke.
CouvesDude, I think if you feel really comfortable on your 1.5c, as I do, then you should try shallower 1.5's. it sounds like a good idea.
Peace,
E |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9381 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I've tried to play lead on a wide, very shallow mouthpiece before, and part of the way into the gig, my lips swelled just enough to bottom out in it. Everyone's different, but I have better success with a more narrow cup and semi-shallow piece for lead. That same general width with a pretty deep cup works great for everything else. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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BobList Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2002 Posts: 1104 Location: Baltimore, MD
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Original poster, and others: " High range but with a bad tone ".
Please tell me what a "good" tone is.
Please tell me why using a smaller/shallower piece for big band lead is cheating, and while you are at it........
Please tell me why using a Bach mega-toilet bowl .695" with a 22 throat is the tool for a dark sound in symphonic pieces, and why that's not a cheater for THAT type of music.
Please tell me why Bill Chase was just a cheatin' no chops wannabe by using a cheater piece. If he used a Bach Mega bowl, and just did the proper exercises instead of just screaming high notes all day, his range and sound would have developed, ehh?
Please don't let your buddies accuse you of using a cheater piece. They are just jealous because the range they possess is inadequate for lead trumpet, or DCI.
A BEAUTIFUL FULL SOUND can be made on any piece, as long as it fits you.
Go here: http://www.jmb-music.com/sounds.html
Listen to Profile of a Trumpet player.
Get back to me, and tell me what size/type of mouthpiece he is using, based on what you hear, mmmmkay? _________________ http://www.JMB-MUSIC.COM
http://gregblackmouthpieces.com/personal.htm |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Juergen wrote: | adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.
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I think that's going the wrong direction for the music, but you can make that work, too. |
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Juergen Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Oct 2007 Posts: 590 Location: Michigan
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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razeontherock wrote: | Juergen wrote: | adding my medium piece back in because the tone is too bright for lower parts which I figure I will be playing as a Freshmen in college marching band and possibly DCI.
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I think that's going the wrong direction for the music, but you can make that work, too. |
Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece. _________________ Go [(Blue))> |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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Using the right tool for the job isn't cheating. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Ortiz wrote: | Using the right tool for the job isn't cheating. |
Yep, you got that right.
And if someone DOES call it a cheater mouthpiece, they're probably just jealous because they couldn't hit those notes to begin with - cheater mouthpiece or no cheater mouthpiece.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
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BuckTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 119
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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CouvesDude wrote: | In regards to using a same size rim but shallower cup I used to us a deep cup with the same size rim as my lead mouthpiece but the sound wasn't quite as good as the 1 1/2, but I do plan on getting a 1 1/2 D or F and see how that does. Thank you all for your comments this helps me a lot. |
Might I suggest ordering the Bach 3F then?
I'm currently using the "equivalent feel of a 1.25" from HammondDesign for my all-around work and sense that the Bach 3F feels a little bit wider on the lips (the Kanstul Mouthpiece Comparator might be a good to reference).
The 3F is rather shallow (and I think the only F-series made by Bach), but with the wider Inner Diameter - it gives my lips some space to swell without bottoming out. Also, the blow doesn't seem quite so stuffy for me as the E-series (FYI: the F-series and D-series have the same backbore).
This mouthpiece was a giant step in the right direction for me in my lead playing (and I am by no means a "natural" lead player).
I've been thrilled with this mouthpiece and have not had any real troubles switching back-and-forth.
Best of Luck!
Ben |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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"I switch from my usual Greg Black / Warburton 5 ES with tweaks to my Warburton 2 MD for orchestra or chamber work"
That's quite a change, how do you work both into your practice routine? |
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Mikeytrpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004 Posts: 5028 Location: Richfield, Minnesota
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Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Juergen wrote: |
Should I stay shallow? I have been told that some bands force you to use pieces around the 3C size. I'm not sure if I'll have to. Now that I think of it my tounging hasn't really cleaned up on the medium piece but I figured that was lack of practice on that piece. |
Any "band" that forces you to use a 3C size mouthpiece should be avoided like the plague. |
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