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Large bore trumpets


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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1219

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Large bore trumpets Reply with quote

A lot of posters here on the TH seem to indicate that their preference is for large bore horns. I would like to bounce this off everyone...
I am proposing [at a substantial investment to me] perhaps the largest bore horn yet offered for sale. A .484 bore Bb in yellow brass, silver plated. I want to use silver plate for a bit more sizzle which I think a horn this large could use to advantage. Mouthpiece choice will be critical as well and going to an extremely shallow cup with a large diameter [such as a Bach 1] rim would balance things out. I may have to make the mouthpieces integral with the mouthpiece receiver and leadpipes, perhaps even wider than the diameter mentioned. Play testing will be the only criteria for that. Bells will be large diameter with a very open tail section and flair. I am looking at a eight inch diameter bell in 17 gauge. Leadpipe venturi will be 10.50mm and have a very long taper to the final .484 bore. With the careful annealing process that I do with my normal horns, I expect this instrument to exceed all demands placed on it by the lovers of big bore trumpets. Naturally it will cost a bit more than my standard models, but up until now no maker has filled this much needed void for someone who needs a large bore instrument. I would welcome your input on this project.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby
Coming from Hal Leonard, "Big Band Classics featuring Tony Scodwell"
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there was a Conn 29B http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn29B1926image.html at .485, just for the record. I'll let someone else ask about the 8-inch bell.

Last edited by jetjaguar on Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's get real... there get's to be a point that "large" is just too large. And it looks to me like you may have nailed it.

OTOH, there may be a very limited sub-market out there for those who think a .470 bore (about the largest commonly available) is just a tad too tight. But I would think this sib-market would be so small that R&D and set-up costs would never be recovered.

I hate being the guy with the half-empty glass, but there it is...
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B_Starry
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slap a trumpet receiver on this, and save yourself the R&D costs:

King 1130 Bb Flugabone, $1,095.00. Key of Bb, 8-1/2" bell, .500" bore.
from http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/688179.aspx

There's your ~ 8" bell and ~ .484 bore ...



- Brian
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Hack001
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

8 inches... sounds about right...
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textr
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Joined: 10 May 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hack001 wrote:
8 inches... sounds about right...


Well, actually mine is 9 inches, (wink, wink nudge nudge )
And it really projects.
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Biber
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Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's obviously compensating for something...

But seriously, the 1908 Couturier model cornet was .484 bore and by all accounts it was very reasonable to play and didn't feel at all big. Honestly I think perception and reality are all too often two different things, and rediculously large bores are ultimately a waste of time. But I do not speak from experience where this is concerned. I'll be interested to hear the results.

B


Last edited by Biber on Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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veery715
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

textr wrote:
Hack001 wrote:
8 inches... sounds about right...


Well, actually mine is 9 inches, (wink, wink nudge nudge )
And it really projects.

Mine's only 2....from the ground.
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jetjaguar
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who may not know, Mr. Scodwell has played with Stan Kenton, Harry James, Doc Severinsen, and made horns for Doc, and others, and currently has a line of trumpets. I'd hate to see him scared off from TH, and be deprived of his contributions. Here's just one link for reference http://www.trumpetguild.org/news/08/0810scodwell.html
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textr
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar wrote:
For those who may not know, Mr. Scodwell has played with Stan Kenton, Harry James, Doc Severinsen, and made horns for Doc, and others, and currently has a line of trumpets. I'd hate to see him scared off from TH, and be deprived of his contributions. Here's just one link for reference http://www.trumpetguild.org/news/08/0810scodwell.html


Jetjaguar,
It was just a joke, nobody has insulted Tony in any way, and if you
think a couple of tasteless little jokes are going to "scare him off" of this website or keep him from building the large bore trumpet that he is talking about, well then you don't know very much about him.
The reason that I say that is because any trumpet player that has had the kind of career and worked with the kind of artists that he has is not going to
get his shorts in a wad because of a couple of tasteless jokes,nor is he going to be intimidated. I am not trying to pick a fight , I 'm just letting you know how things are.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

textr wrote:
jetjaguar wrote:
For those who may not know, Mr. Scodwell has played with Stan Kenton, Harry James, Doc Severinsen, and made horns for Doc, and others, and currently has a line of trumpets. I'd hate to see him scared off from TH, and be deprived of his contributions. Here's just one link for reference http://www.trumpetguild.org/news/08/0810scodwell.html


Jetjaguar,
It was just a joke, nobody has insulted Tony in any way, and if you
think a couple of tasteless little jokes are going to "scare him off" of this website or keep him from building the large bore trumpet that he is talking about, well then you don't know very much about him.
The reason that I say that is because any trumpet player that has had the kind of career and worked with the kind of artists that he has is not going to
get his shorts in a wad because of a couple of tasteless jokes,nor is he going to be intimidated. I am not trying to pick a fight , I 'm just letting you know how things are.



I do not know Mr. Scodwell, but would have to think textr is correct. I think most of us are very happy to have the guys who build our horns contribute to the forum, I know I've learned a lot. By the same token, I can certainly see why the builders would frequent forums like this, HAS to be good for business. Everyone wins, I think.
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patdublc
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go for it Tony. As soon as one hits DC, I'm sure that Lee W. will give me a holler to come check it out.
For anyone who has no experience with Tony's horns - rest assured that whatever he makes will feature top level craftmanship.


pat
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony- are the valve ports going to be that large?
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cleanhead77@embarqmail
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Joined: 05 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The great lead player Nick Russo ( Vegas - Jacke Gleason - Walt Disney World to name a few credits) had Martin build him a Committee in extra large bore with a 6"bell. He sounded wonderful on it, but nobody else could play that thing in tune. Very difficult to center. I had a little of this trouble with a Wild Thing. Could this be a problem when the dimensions for a Bb trumpet are just too big?
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James B. Quick
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'm a large bore horn player. The horn you propsoe sounds interesting. What size bell would it take to produce the lowest tones? What is the point at which a larger bell becomes non-functioning?

As far as the proposed mouthpice is concerned, I wouldn't be able to use it. My chops would bottom out, and I think that might be a common problem with a large diameter shallow mthpce.

My Holton Banana Horn is .484, but it plays smaller because of tight bends in the tuning slide and constrictions in the valve ports.

If you are going to make the mouthpiece integral with the receiver and leadpipe you may have to make many custom size mouthpieces. If the available sizes are limited you may lose sales.

The long leadpipe taper, which maybe would be more conical than cylindrical, combined with the large bell taper and large bell might end up being more like a flugelhorn hybrid of some sort, maybe?

Please keep us informed, I would like to try one... James
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plp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not trying to get you to give up any trade secrets, but are you going for a conical leadpipe (as mentioned above) or are you going to step bore it from venturi/leadpipe/tuning slide?

My favorite cornet of all are the .485 Victors, and (as you probably already know) it has one of the most dramatic leadpipe tapers of anything I've played or seen. Add to that the extra resistance from the opera glass tuner and the large bore is pretty much no different than any other cornet or trumpet.

Food for thought, rather than an integral mouthpiece, consider a threaded receiver allowing use of Warburton, Kanstul or Reeves tops, if you are considering this as a marketable product.

I tried something similar to this, using a Director cornet body, a C trumpet leadpipe, and the bell from a Getzen frumpet. It played roughly in the key of Ab, if it had an identifiable key.... mine was purely as a joke, while yours sounds like it could be a real monster.
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Blackwell wrote:
Let's get real... there get's to be a point that "large" is just too large. And it looks to me like you may have nailed it.

OTOH, there may be a very limited sub-market out there for those who think a .470 bore (about the largest commonly available) is just a tad too tight. But I would think this sib-market would be so small that R&D and set-up costs would never be recovered.

I hate being the guy with the half-empty glass, but there it is...


Bill, your glass may be half full but your sound was always VERY full.....
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbacon wrote:
Bill, your glass may be half full but your sound was always VERY full.....


Dave: I think you give me far too much credit, but thanks for the vote of confidence. Kindest regards, Bill
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please make me the first 10 inch belled trumpet....! But I want it under 2 lbs.
Tony you rock!

-T

PS: Of course the horn has to come with a custom made "SCOD-WELL" mute fully loaded!
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mcahynuacrkd
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
A lot of posters here on the TH seem to indicate that their preference is for large bore horns. I would like to bounce this off everyone...
I am proposing [at a substantial investment to me] perhaps the largest bore horn yet offered for sale. A .484 bore Bb in yellow brass, silver plated. I want to use silver plate for a bit more sizzle which I think a horn this large could use to advantage. Mouthpiece choice will be critical as well and going to an extremely shallow cup with a large diameter [such as a Bach 1] rim would balance things out. I may have to make the mouthpieces integral with the mouthpiece receiver and leadpipes, perhaps even wider than the diameter mentioned. Play testing will be the only criteria for that. Bells will be large diameter with a very open tail section and flair. I am looking at a eight inch diameter bell in 17 gauge. Leadpipe venturi will be 10.50mm and have a very long taper to the final .484 bore. With the careful annealing process that I do with my normal horns, I expect this instrument to exceed all demands placed on it by the lovers of big bore trumpets. Naturally it will cost a bit more than my standard models, but up until now no maker has filled this much needed void for someone who needs a large bore instrument. I would welcome your input on this project.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns
"Live In The Studio" by the Tony Scodwell Big Band now at CD Baby
Coming from Hal Leonard, "Big Band Classics featuring Tony Scodwell"

Tony I think the .484 bore is a great idea, but I am not so sure about the eight inch bell idea. Why not a 5 " bell, more like the original Conn 28B?(not 29b , the 28 b was in Bb, the 29B in A )
http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn28B1925image.html
I wonder if the 8" bell might create too much of an altoish sound, you are talking about a trumpet bell that is the size of my flugabone bell, one that is 2 " larger than a flugelhorn.
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