Flattened chin

DSR · Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:22 pm Post subject:

This topic has been started in another forum and I was going to post something there but I thought I'd better check here for the accuracy of my information first.

When I read the encyclopedia I see something to the effect of, "to ascend the lower lip rolls in and over the lower teeth without bunching the chin muscles". I have also noticed that nowhere does Reinhardt say "point the chin" or "stretch the chin muscles down." Did he purposely not say "point the chin" or "stretch the chin muscles down." ?

Now this is how I read into it: There is a continuum between a bunch chin (pushing the chin towards the nose) and pointing the chin (blowing hot soup a la farkas). Reinhardt didn't want you to point your chin, but rather just NOT bunch it. i.e. have the chin somewhere in the middle of the continuum. Does this make sense or am I full of it?

I have heard and read people saying something like "80% of players play a farkas embouchure". What on earth is this supposed to mean? Does a farkas embouchure mean the chin is very pointed (like farkas said to do) or just NOT bunched (like Reinhardt said)? Or is "farkas embouchure" just a term used by teachers who don't fully understand the mechanics of embouchure? (This isn't intended to offend anyone)

If you don't understand a word I just said I don't blame you.

Clarification is appreciated.

-Brendan

[ This Message was edited by: DSR on 2003-06-12 00:25 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I think you pretty much nailed it Brendan.

When you really start trying hard to point that chin down, I think it has a tendancy to pull the lower lip off the lower teeth.

Of course if you read the ridiculous ideas about embouchure in the Farkas book, he says that the lips should never roll in. Then he has some silly analogy about your chops being like a set of double doors. I used to own that book, but I gave my copy away years ago. The funniest thing about that book is reading all his rules for a correct embouchure, then looking at the pictures of Herseth with his lower lip slightly in and over his lower teeth ala Reinhardt.

That book is a good example of a great player talking about how he "THINKS" HE PLAYS.

If you think of the lower lip as "hugging the lower teeth" the chin will take care of itself. Doc always stressed that the "lower lip and teeth act as ONE UNIT". If you think about it in that way you should have few problems.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Chris and Brendan;
The chin should be flat and firm for all types.
Remembering back to the 1970's, my roomate at Berklee (Carl Miller) was a IIIA.
I can still hear Doc's voice from the inner office telling him that the chin for a type IIIA must be flat, firm and pointed.
WEG

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Bill,

I disagree with you on the word "pointed".

"Pointing" the chin is more of a "Farkas" term.

If you buzz, and try to consiously point your chin you will pull the lower lip off the lower teeth and loose the buzz.

I never heard Doc say to "point" the chin. I don't believe he says to "point" the chin in the Encyclopedia. What he does say is no "Popeye" chin. He also says to keep the chin "firm and flat".

The best way to put the idea across as far as the chin goes is to think of the lower lip "hugging" the lower teeth. That comes right from Dave Sheetz.

If the student thinks of "hugging" instead of "pointing" he will be more likely to think of the lower lip and jaw as "one unit". This is a Reinhardt must.

Chris

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Chris, Bill, Brendan,
I have an audio cassette of a lesson I took with Doc in 1976 when I was going into a Popeye chin situation up and around CC... i was just breaking in my high register after a jaw and horn angle change ... I sent the tape to Dave Wilken and there is a big discussion going on in the OTG about this very subject (they call it by all kinds of names.) I do believe Doc used the word "pointed" on the tape ... he definitely made me think of the lower lip and chin "as one unit". To make sure the condition doesn't come in with the extreme high register ( where it showed up for me) he had me ascend by degrees and not expect the condition to go away immediately. The order of breakdown in the extreme high register, (he says on the tape), is 1. the jaw comes back 2. the corners break down 3. the upper lip pulls out and 4. the lower lip bunches up to "keep it going" (he calls this "grasping at straws" at this point.
the lesson tape is personal and I don't like to have it in circulation, but for the three questioners, Bill, Chris and Brendan ( all IIIB's or "for nows") I'd be glad to share.
Thanks, Dave S.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Dave,

Did he use the word "pointed" when speaking of the chin??

Or maybe he was talking about the "pointed feel".

Do you think there is any merit to what I said earlier about "hugging the lower lip" instead of "pointing the chin downward".

Whats your take on this?

Also.....While I would NEVER condone a "popeye" chin, Maynards chin isn't exactly "board flat" in his high register. I notice this on a lot of great players, the chin will come up SLIGHTLY in the super high register. Especially on downstream types.

Chris

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Chris,
I never use the term "pointed" chin...I always say "hug the lower teeth". The dictionary defines "pointed" as "Tapering to a point". I don't think Doc meant pointing the chin DOWNWARD when he said "pointed". It's a choice of words here. I think whatever is clear to the student and gets the results, choose the words that work. In my previous statement about the steps toward developing the bad habit of "Popeye Chin", in regards to why we want to pull the upper lip out...when the jaw stops supporting and the corners break down, the upper lip must try to thin out to produce the faster, tenser vibrations necessary for the extreme top ("Bugs Bunny" here). Lo and behold, there's the "Popeye".
Good "point", Chris. This should help a lot of players.
Dave S.

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-06-13 06:03 ]

[ This Message was edited by: airdyn on 2003-06-13 06:04 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I said earlier that I got "hug the lower teeth" from Dave.

If you are doing that, it's almost impossible to play with a "popeye" chin.

The reason that I went off into this whole big discussion on "terms" is because if you look at all the people who use the term "pointing" with regards to the chin, they are not Reinhardt people.

That term will forever be linked to Philip Farkas. And all the "Farkas believers" would never condone the rolling in of the lower lip.

The great thing about "hugging" is it flattens the chin AND brings the lower lip slightly in and over the lower teeth.

Chris

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Chris, Dave, etc;
Let me clarify my earlier post.
I heard Doc state on several occaisions that a type IIIA will have a chin that is flat, firm and pointed.
I heard him say this to both a IIIA trombonist and to a IIIA trumpet player. This is only for the type IIIA.
Ducking and running for cover;
WEG

airdyn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 579

Bill, Yes Doc did said "pointed" as you had overheard. He did not say "pointing", however. (See earlier post). There is a difference.
Dave S.

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Dave;
Yes, I just wanted to make sure that everyone was clear that the type IIIA chin is pointed not pointing.
What do they mean by pointing? Pointing at what?
I have seen MANY Popeye chins as of late.
Anyone have any input on this?
Is this just beecause I am really looking for them or is this normal for embouchures in the developmental stage?

WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 6:47 am Post subject:

I recently got back from a road trip (found a new place to live in Asheville) and have just had a chance to listen to the tape Dave S. sent me. Doc states several times to Dave on this tape that his chin should be "firm, flat, and pointed."

It seems to me that most students would likely hear this description and end up protruding their jaw slightly to make it "pointed." If this was Doc's intention, I would guess that he would use the term "pointed" only when a student needed to get the jaw thrust out.

Much of this tape also covered how the "popeye chin" is a result of the chin and lower jaw not functioning as a unit, but as two seperate entities. I guess that if the chin is firm and flat and the jaw is protruded slightly (maybe not for straight Type IIIs, any thoughts?) the chin and jaw can't help but function together.

Thanks, Dave!

Dave W.