Let's talk large bore cornets

[slide911]

Been playing with my Olds Studio cornet with a 470 bore and I have a new Conn 80a coming in also with a large bore.

Until the last few days, I really never spent much time with a large bore cornet. After getting used to it, and now that my playing has progressed, I may be ready for a large bore instrument. It definitely has a different feel to it, which verbal descriptions are beyond my power to articulate.

It definitely feels like the horn to do the Chicago Style playing I've been learning lately, more so than my medium bore Martin or 1930 Olds.

Really loving the feel. On interesting phenom is that even though I am playing the same mouthpiece in both horns, it feels "bigger" somehow on the large bore instrument than the medium bore, as if the rim had grown wider. Weird feeling.
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[plp]

Not unusual at all, and a sign you are adapting well to the larger bore. If any generalities exist about bore size, it is that there is more room for the airstream, simply because it is larger.

What is happening is you are controlling the aperture and making it smaller, to keep from just wasting air. There is probably less resistance (although I personally never noticed it with an 80-A, as the leadpipe taper gives about the same resistance to me as a ML bore trumpet) and you are making the unconscious adjustments necessary to efficiently use your air.
_________________
Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth

[slide911]

So what about the playing characteristics of large bore vs medium bore.

Fuller sound? Louder Sounc? More complex sound? What actually does the bore size bring to the table?
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[Flip Oakes]

There is a sound sample of myself playing the .470 bore Flip Oakes Wild Thing Short Shepherds Crook Cornet at
http://www.flipoakes.com/mp3/pete-kellys-blues.mp3


Comparing: Wild Thing Short Shepherds Crook Cornet / Flip Oakes Wild Thing American Long Model Cornet


I introduced the Flip Oakes American Model Wild Thing Cornet out as a alternative to the Short Shepard's Crook Model.

The Short Model Cornet, is “THE CORNET ”, as to the “Real” turn of the 20th Century, with a dark rich warm, and somewhat gentler, yet very authoritative sound. It also has a real cornet blow to it, and is preferred by serious cornet players.

The Longer American Model has more of a trumpet like blow to it, and so while it still has a very dark rich, warm sound, the sound has a somewhat slight edge on it, and perhaps just a bit brighter in sound. In my opinion, this difference makes it easy for a trumpet player to double back and forth from trumpet to cornet. Even though the American Model is somewhat brighter in sound, it is not not like a trumpet, and truly is a cornet, but with a more trumpet like blow, as to feel.

While both Wild Thing Cornets have the very same leadpipe and bell, the difference in playing characteristics comes from the way they are physically laid out. So now it’s just a matter of choice to the player as to which model that is preferred.

Both Cornets are .470 Bore, and have a 5" bell flair with a very open throat. The American Model I offer in Lacquer, Silver, or Gold plate. The "Wild Thing Short Shepherds Crook Cornet" is only offered in either Silver or Gold plate.


The "Wild Thing Short Shepherds Crook Cornet"


After years of research and design, Flip Oakes has created what many players are calling the ultimate Cornet. The "Wild Thing Short Shepherds Crook" is the most open and free blowing cornet ever made.

Response is incredibly fast and allows great flexibility and superb intonation. This truly unique new concept in design produces a sound that is very open and dark with a huge core, yet retains it's shape.

This masterpiece will meet the demands of every solo cornet player.

The most significant features of this horn is it's open wrapped, conical, one piece, hand hammered bell.

The Wild Thing Cornet presents all of the "Romance of the cornet" reflected in the cornets of the turn of the 20th century.

This cornet has the same gentle flowing curves which will remind you of the Grand Old Cornets of the past with one major exception.

Using today's technology and Flip Oakes special design has added a playing quality never before achieved in any cornet.

The Wild Thing Cornet will bring you back to the days when cornets ruled , and trumpets were fanfare instruments.

http://www.flipoakes.com/bflat_short_cornet.htm

http://www.flipoakes.com/review_gold_short_cornet.htm

Also I have recorded with it, and can be heard at: http://www.flipoakes.com/mp3/pete-kellys-blues.mp3

[slide911]

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

Can anyone address the issue of medium bore vs large bore when it comes to playing Chicago/dixieland style.
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[plp]

From my experience, the smaller bore cornets (such as my 1936 38-A Special) have a tighter, brighter tone than the larger bores. I get more flexibility with the Special, but I suspect that is more due to the excellent compression of the valves and the good slotting with a custom Warburton backbore cut for vintage Conn receivers.

I've grown up on dixieland, but am not that familiar with the Chicago style jazz, as it just sounds like dixieland to me.
_________________
Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth

[Dale Proctor]

I haven't really thought about it much, but all the 20th century cornets I regularly play are large bores. I'd agree that they have a big, full sound, but I don't really know how much of that could be attributed to bore size - it could just be the cornet design in general. It would be difficult to determine the effect of bore size by itself unless you had examples of the same cornet in various bores to play test. I have played cornets that had a bright sound, such as the King Master, but offhand, I don't know the bore size of those horns.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[slide911]

Chicago style jazz is the jazz usually associated with Eddie Condon, which I think differs from traditional dixieland in a couple of fundamental ways, mostly - very up tempo style, guitar rather than banjo, standup bass rather than tuba, and an emphasis on 4 beats rather than 2.

BTW, just got the King Slivertone. Looks beautiful but haven't had time to play it yet.
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[giakara]

I have never try a small bore cornet but i use to own a Getzen eterna 800 LB and now i use the eterna 850(the precesor of the 3850) LB to play that kind of music for 15 years and as i now those horns is the standart for the tradisional jazz cornet player , many artist like Bobby Hackett and others use to play large bore eternas with great succes.

Regards
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Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2015
Lawler TL6-1A Bb 2004
Lawler TL5-1A Bb 2003
Getzen eterna 910 C
Getzen eterna 850 cornet
Selmer Paris 3 valve picc
Yamaha 731 flugel
Carol mini pocket
Reeves/Purviance mpcs

[slide911]

Does anyone know the bore of the King Silvertone cornet?
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[tom turner]

[thedevilisbad]

My 80A is something like a .485 which is huge. It doesn't feel that big to me at all, but it is very mouthpiece sensitive. Also I feel like I have more control on this horn. I suppose it takes time getting used to any new horn, no matter the bore size.
_________________
Do or do not, there is no try.

David Koch Custom 1958 Olds Ambassador
1951 Conn 80A
A lot of other crap.

[slide911]

"PS: Run by an auto supply store like Auto Zone and get a set of inexpensive calipers and you can measure the bore size of any and all horns you come across."

I thought bore size was measured from inside the horn, not outside.
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[Dale Proctor]

Most calipers have a second set of "fingers" that take inside measurements, too. The inside of the 2nd valve slide tubing is the generally accepted measuring point.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[slide911]

"The inside of the 2nd valve slide tubing is the generally accepted measuring point."

That I didn't know. The second slide tubing is constant with main slide tubing?
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[Dale Proctor]

I think it's probably the same size as the 1st and 3rd slide tubing, but that's what I've always read - measure inside the 2nd valve slide. I've measured some of my horns, and when dealing with thousandths of an inch, I have trouble duplicating the published bore figures of a lot of horns.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[slide911]

Is bore size determned from where the tuning slide (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) meet the valve casing? for some reason I thought it was where the lead pipe met the main tuning slide.
_________________
1921 Conn 80A Cornet
1934 King Silvertone Cornet
1951 Martin Committee Trumpet

[nieuwguyski]

[Dale Proctor]

My Bach 184 cornet is like that. The tuning slide increases size from leadpipe to valve casing. The slide won't fit if you flip it over - the upper and lower tubes are two different sizes.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Dr Worm]

So I guess the Bach 181 straight bell model, both vintage and current versions, has a tuning slide that is single bore?