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Def Trumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 357 Location: MI
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: Bach Backbore Question |
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I play a 3c and it was suggested to me to try a smaller backbore.
So -- to go from a 27 to a 24.
I have no experience with doing this sort of thing. What would the specific designation for that piece be?
Is that a 3C with a 7 backbore? _________________ '50s Martin Committee M Bore
NY Bach Strad 42
MV Bach Strad 37
ACB 3CS |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:46 am Post subject: |
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Never heard of either of those. Stock backbore on a 3C is #10. If you go Kanstul, you could try #76 or #41 for Bach, as well as SB, SA, S72 (Schilke), among many others. Their 3C top is a scan of a famous LA players favorite mouthpiece. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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dr_trumpet Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 Posts: 2534 Location: Cope, IN
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Bach Backbore Question |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | I play a 3c and it was suggested to me to try a smaller backbore.
So -- to go from a 27 to a 24.
I have no experience with doing this sort of thing. What would the specific designation for that piece be?
Is that a 3C with a 7 backbore? |
Bach backbore sizes are not 'sizes'. The 7 is the modified Schmitt, the 87 the 'full' Schmitt, the 117 the piccolo (but very open), the 24 the symphonic, the 10 us the standard. Smaller than the 10 include the 76, the 41, the 25, and others. Other larger ones include the 3. So, if you get a chance, go over to http://www.bachbrass.com and take a look at their downloadable mouthpiece manual. Kanstul used to have a backbore comparitor in addition to the mouthpiece comparitor, but I don't see it on the site any more.
[/url] _________________ Dr. Albert L. Lilly, III DM
Artist/Clinician for Vincent Bach Trumpets (Conn-Selmer)
Principal Trumpet, Hendricks Symphony (Avon, IN)
Arranger/Composer; Lilly Music |
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Chuckledoo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 274 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | I play a 3c and it was suggested to me to try a smaller backbore.
So -- to go from a 27 to a 24.
I have no experience with doing this sort of thing. What would the specific designation for that piece be?
Is that a 3C with a 7 backbore? |
It sounds like you're talking about the throat, or bore, rather than the backbore.
The throat is where the cup transitions to the backbore. Standard Bach throat size is 27; but that's the drill bit size, so going to a 24 is actually going to a larger throat, not a smaller one.
The terminology is confusing: "throat" and "bore" are basically interchangeable (at least in this regard), but "backbore" refers to something else entirely.
The backbore is basically the shape of the air passageway inside the shank. dr_trumpet has covered those already, so I'll leave that to him. Here's a link to a backbore comparator: http://mysite.verizon.net/dogfish3/kanstul_mpc/CompareBB_FF.html
Hope that helps, and good luck with the search. If you do mean to increase in size from a 27 to a 24, it's best to get two identical 3C's (or as close to identical as possible...) and go stepwise. So, leave one at a 27, and drill the other to a 26. If you like the 26, drill the 27 to a 25, and so on, until one is too big.
Best,
Chuck
Last edited by Chuckledoo on Wed May 20, 2009 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Def Trumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 357 Location: MI
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Well, the person said try a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore?
I know he meant smaller and not bigger...so whatever that means. _________________ '50s Martin Committee M Bore
NY Bach Strad 42
MV Bach Strad 37
ACB 3CS |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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The linked page is too cool! I've never seen the Back Bore Comparator before. The differences look small, but I can tell you, they don't feel small.
Back bore changes slotting, "width" of tone, and harmonic equalization. It will also determine response in various registers and change (or emphasize) intonation characteristics. All the differences are subtle, but finding the right back bore for your horn and type of play is gratifying.
Throat size will alter the resistance curve of the horn, adjusting the blow. It also acts like a volume control for the horn, increasing or decreasing the amount of sound for a given amount of lung pressure.
There is some debate as to the concept of "efficiency". Some like the added resistance of a small throat and find that it helps the upper register. I find that a larger throat helps me to reach that part of my range more easily.
The most efficient set up I've played to date is my friends newly restored CG Benge coupled with my CG Personal mouthpiece. This is a supremely open combination, but the horn speaks with so little effort that it takes remarkably little amounts of pressure and airflow to play the thing and fill the room.
The CG Benge has a .468" bore and the CG Personal uses a back bore similar to the Bach 3 (very open) with a throat size equivalent to a #21.5!
This is about finding a balance to match your technique and facilitate your ability. The "magic" sollution to your present limitations is sound coaching accompanied by dilligent practice.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Richard A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 722 Location: Rhode Island, USA
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | Well, the person said try a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore?
I know he meant smaller and not bigger...so whatever that means. |
James Becker at Osmun Music can supply a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore. He can even supply a mouthpiece with a 24 throat anda 24 backbore.
Throat sizes refer to drill diameters. The smaller the number the larger the whole. Backbore numbers aren't sizes at all (go figure). |
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KanstulBrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 714 Location: California
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:22 am Post subject: |
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For the record, the aforementioned link goes to an unauthorized mirror of our own Backbore Comparator, but since the link seems to be missing on our own website, it couldn't hurt to use the "dogfish" link until it is restored.
regards, _________________ Charles G Hargett
Brass Industry Consultant
(Kanstul, Shires, BAC, Benge) |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5213 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | Well, the person said try a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore?
I know he meant smaller and not bigger...so whatever that means. |
A 24 backbore is larger than the stock backbore. Either you misunderstood or the person who's giving you advice is mixed up. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2165 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | Well, the person said try a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore?
I know he meant smaller and not bigger...so whatever that means. |
Hmmm, a Bach 3C with a 24 backbore is more open than a stock 3C. Sounds contradictory to me.
If this is what you want, a quick and cost effective way to get this is to call Dillon Music in NJ, purchase a stock Bach 3C, but have them open it to a 24 backbore before they send it to you. When I was there in December, they charged me $25 for opening the throat and the backbore to a 24 plus $35 for the price of the stock mouthpiece. |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi Charles,
Is there any chance of you guys getting the Claude Gordon Personal Backbore up on your backbore comparator? I'd sure like to see how it compares to the Back 24 with something other than my famous 45 year old backbore-measuring pencil... (I'm referring to the pencil from my Grandfather's desk that has an advertisement on it for a business that's been gone for more than 40 years).
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
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lburrows Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1096 Location: England
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Bach Backbore Question |
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Def Trumpet wrote: | I play a 3c and it was suggested to me to try a smaller backbore.
So -- to go from a 27 to a 24.
I have no experience with doing this sort of thing. What would the specific designation for that piece be?
Is that a 3C with a 7 backbore? |
Its sounds like to me that you are getting throat sizes and backbore numbers muddled.
The Bach 3C, like almost every other trumpet and cornet Bach mouthpiece, has a size 27 throat. This is a reamer size, and off the top of my head is 3.66mm. Some players like to enlarge the throat. The lower the number, the larger the throat. On C trumpet, a popular throat size is 24 for example.
The standard backbore of the Bach C cup is the Bach 10 backbore. Again from memory, this is a Warburton 7, 7* and 8 equivalent, so a medium size. Bach A cups have the larger more symphonic 24 backbore as standard (the Bach 10 backbore of the C cup can be enlarged to the 24, which is a common modification along with a 24 throat, for use on C trumpet), Bach B cups, the dark schmitt-style 7 backbore, C and no letter designation cups, the 10 backbore, D and F cups, the more commerical sounding 76 backbore, E cups, the 117 piccolo backbore.
You can't make the backbore of a standard 3C smaller, only larger, unless you buy a 3C top and alternative backbore from the Kanstul modular mouthpiece system.
I am guessing that you are playing in an orchestra, and somebody has suggested having your standard 10 backbore enlarged to a 24. Please correct me if I am wrong.
I would not alter your current mouthpiece.
I would suggest trying a 3C top from the Kanstul modular system with a 24 backbore, or buying a new 3C with a 24 backbore.
I hope that this helps
Lou _________________ I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL
Last edited by lburrows on Wed May 20, 2009 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Def Trumpet Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2008 Posts: 357 Location: MI
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Person who gave me the advice must be wrong or not giving clear advice.
He wants me to go smaller not larger.
This has to do with issues I'm having with a martin committee I got restored. Low register notes (D and Db, sometime Eb) are coming out with a split tone effect. _________________ '50s Martin Committee M Bore
NY Bach Strad 42
MV Bach Strad 37
ACB 3CS |
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Chuckledoo Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Posts: 274 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:08 am Post subject: |
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KanstulBrass wrote: |
For the record, the aforementioned link goes to an unauthorized mirror of our own Backbore Comparator, but since the link seems to be missing on our own website, it couldn't hurt to use the "dogfish" link until it is restored.
regards, |
Sorry. I had a feeling that was the case, but I found this site on a Google search after Kanstul's Backbore Comparator went down. If you want, I can remove the links.
Regards,
Chuck |
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KanstulBrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003 Posts: 714 Location: California
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Chuckledoo wrote: | KanstulBrass wrote: |
For the record, the aforementioned link goes to an unauthorized mirror of our own Backbore Comparator, but since the link seems to be missing on our own website, it couldn't hurt to use the "dogfish" link until it is restored.
regards, |
Sorry. I had a feeling that was the case, but I found this site on a Google search after Kanstul's Backbore Comparator went down. If you want, I can remove the links.
Regards,
Chuck |
Go ahead and leave it up for now, thank. We are going to be revising and expanding our own website soon and we will be sure to include the Backbore Comparator this time _________________ Charles G Hargett
Brass Industry Consultant
(Kanstul, Shires, BAC, Benge) |
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Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5213 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Bach Backbore Question |
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lburrows wrote: | Thel larger the number, the larger the throat. |
I think this is just a typo, but it's exactly backwards. The larger the number, the smaller the throat. A 24 throat is bigger than a 27. _________________ Richard Sandals
NBO |
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lburrows Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1096 Location: England
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Bach Backbore Question |
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Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | lburrows wrote: | Thel larger the number, the larger the throat. |
I think this is just a typo, but it's exactly backwards. The larger the number, the smaller the throat. A 24 throat is bigger than a 27. |
Yes, just a typo, thanks.
As you can see from the thel rather than the, I was typing in a hurry.
Thanks very much for pointing this out.
I will modify my post.
All the best
Lou _________________ I am now Lou Finch
I am a Principal Cornet and Big Band Trumpeter.
Bach 180ML 37/25 Trumpet - Bach 3C
Bach 184ML Cornet - Kanstul custom Bach 3C
Besson 927 Sovereign Cornet - Bach 5A
B&H Imperial Cornet - Bach 5A
Bach 183 Flugel - Bach 3CFL |
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