Malone/Bach leadpipe comparison

etntrpt · Regular Member Joined: 10 Oct 2009 Posts: 19

Hi, Can anyone tell me what Malone pipes compare, approximately with Bach leadpipes, as far as resistance and tone quality is concerned. Obviously the evenness and intonation will be better on a Malone. I currently have a MC1o and would just be interested to know as I haven't tried many but the standard Bach pipes (25H, 25A). Also, would the MC1o be more open than an MC2, while an MC2 is more open than a standard MC1. Ahh.... a bit confusing!

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 1316

My very limited information says that he started out with a Bach 7 leadpipe and modified it to his specifications to arrive at his first popular leadpipes! If I recall correctly Ken Larson's main leadpipe is derived from a Bach 7 as well as far as the starting point. Now keep in mind that you can start with a Ford pinto and end up with a drag car so the starting point is just that we have no idea of what he did to the Bach 7 and how close the end product was to the starting product? This is what has made me consider trying a Bach 7 though. SInce he chose that one as the starting point he must have felt it had the most potential! It is also interesting to note that Bach 6 and 7 leadpipes where the most popular for a long long time!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

jvand678 · Regular Member Joined: 02 Apr 2007 Posts: 57 Location: TX

you're right, it can be a bit confusing. I believe with a little searching, you can pull up some the of the info that was copied and pasted from Malone's website before he went to Yamaha.

The MC1 is going to be the tighter of his pipes, a slower taper if you will. It should produce a slightly darker sound vs the more open (faster tapered) MC2 pipe. Your MC1o is slightly faster version of the MC1.

Side by side comparisons to my Bach pipes, the MC2 felt somewhat like my 25H pipe but even more open. The MC1 closer to my 7. I'm sure that the old conversion horn pipes varied slightly from one to the next based on who was payin and how they wanted the horn to sound/feel. Keep in mind, this is a real basic comparison. It's too bad Mike Zonshine isn't frequenting the site still. He could really nail down the details on these.

jv

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 1316

Yes when ever you want hard facts and details they tend to come up short in the trumpet world.......It is like everyone has stitched lips but it is silly because competition has the ability to copy every aspect of it. How do they think people like Kanstul and all the others come up with a 37 and 72 bell etc.....They made detailed measurements of the Bach and made their own mandrel etc.....So the only people that any of these companies are keeping the truth from is their customer's very little of what they keep secret is anything that a competitor can not copy through detailed measurement or pulling a Bengeing and filling them full of lead and then peeling back the metal! and taking measurements! When you want to sell someone something the last thing you want them to use to base the decision is facts! You want to remove facts at all cost and substitute emotions.I can not think of any other hobbie that does not give you fact's and figures amature radio, hot roding, sky diving,precision cronographs,computer's,air planes,vitamins,protein powder's guns you name it numbers facts figures etc.........If you go to GM's website and look under corvette they will give you piston diameters, stroke, size of the valves what the pistons and valves are made from material wise etc..............If I want information on a two way radio again all kinds of facts about the electronics and circuits in the radio as well as objective evaluations from independent testers just like the car magazines etc......

Move over to trumpet though and you can not get most companies to tell you the venturi size of their leadpipe on a given model do not even think of asking for the specification of the bell profile or intonation charts of the various configuration of that model etc.........They have that information but will not share it. Again if Conn Selmer Bach wanted to copy something Jasson Harrelson made not really thinking that they would have a hard time tossing dollars at R&D to reverse engineer his work! Same thing for Yamaha if they where losing significant market share to Mr. Scodwell due to his propitiatory annealing process I am sure they could reverse engineer it. having seen quite a bit of reverse engineering of things fair more complicated then a trumpet in the automotive world I know how easy a large corp can do this if they think it is needed for their continued market dominance!

So when most companies say it is propitiatory they are reallying saying " I do not want you my customer to know because I do not want you be well informed and make an intelligent decision!". Nothing serves them better then vague adjectives and adverbs with lots of emotional content and triggers and buzz words! Even better if they can take a sleek looking shot of the trumpet for the add.

So unless I find a good book on the design of brass winds instruments I have about given up on hard facts and I am just looking to copy what I like and buy what I think will sound the way I want it too sound as this is about as good as trying to use company supplied descriptions of their products! Most of them are about useless almost all of the models sound exactly the same if you go by the OEM's description! Same thing with parts leadpipe descriptions are dreadful might as well use Tarot Cards or Astrology Charts to pick them with out hard measurements and rates of taper to compare know quantities to etc....
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

Bill Blackwell · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:05 am Post subject:

ChopsGone · Veteran Member Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 408

Get busy, Craptain. Fill that brain with something worthwhile, however little time that takes:

http://www.amazon.com/Musical-Instrument-Design-Practical-Information/dp/1884365086
_________________
Vintage Olds & Reynolds galore
Calicchio, Kanstul, Wild Thing, Besson, Selmer....
F.E. forgive me, even a Bach Strad (but I like the others much better)

oliver king · Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject:

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 1316

Ok all knowing trumpet nit wits do tell us the specifications of Bach,Blackburn,Malone leadpipes designs......If I am just killing brain cells of your's which I doubt where is your well informed information!!!! SO all that blah blah blah was just a case of direaha of the mouth I take it? Well lets hope your brains did not fall out in the process!!! HEre is chance know it all know nothings for you to unit your mental powers no matter how feeble that might be and prove me wrong! Go and get the specifications that the OP is asking for then post them on this sight? We want the entire specifications for the lead pipe not just the venturi opening size and the size at the big end!

What the matter Oliver King do not know 1/10 what you think you know? Looks to me like all you are good for is cutting other's down and acting like a fool in front of thousands! Kind of reminds me of a guy that was popular ranting in Austrian Beer halls some time ago. How lot of typing but nothing to say that is worth while! So where are those specifications Oliver? How come no one will share them with you? Surely a sage such as yourself mush have contacts with in the industry! Oh let me guess they tell you it's propitiatory as well! So it looks like your street cred among you insider friends is even lower then mine! Truth hurts I know! So other then trying to play an internet bully which I find rather both pathetic and funny at the same time do you have anything on topic and credible to add to this thread? I know I am asking too much but next time you want to act like a fool in one of my threads read the thread and reply to information that you can either confirm or offer proof of it not being as I say. Surely someone of you intellect can read enough to understand what I am saying and then reply with text that either supports what I have written or dispute it with evidence! Stop acting like a child and man up a bit!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

bike&ed · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Dec 2004 Posts: 955

Cap'n, what happened? The last time we met on a TH thread, you were greatly improving the quality of your posts.

Don't worry about the cut-downs. Yes, I know I've thrown some bombs your way too, but I'm trying to be friendly now. You can greatly reduce the amount of flak you catch by cutting down on the word count a bit. I'm sure you have good stuff to contribute, it's just hard to wade through such long posts.

Here's to smooth sailing (err, warping?, err...)

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject:

Geez guys...
Captian kirk is completely correct in his complaint that the companies dont want us to know the specifics of, lets say, leadpipe design.

It is really hard to get that info from any bach publication, or calichio, or schilke etc. For some reason they just dont want all the customers knowing details. Maybe it's because they believe that those details will cause players to make assumptions, and then end up buying a horn that is not the best fit for them. A valid case could be made that that is the reason they dont like to tell design details.

Having said that, one time at North texas state (now UNT) the trumpet department had Lloyd Fileo, in charge of design at Bach, come and answer questions for the trumpet players. To my shock, he answered everything, in pretty good detail. he did say that no matter what the measurement were, you need to try everything to see how it works for you.

Some of the things he said that day:
1) the 43 pipe and the 25 pipe are from the same mandrel, but the 43 is cut off 1/4 inch farther up. Making the whole thing bigger, but the venturi is not opened up after assembly so the venturi is about the same size as a 25. (by the way, he never gave venturi sizes, but nobody asked him either)

2) a 25"O" pipe is a 25 pipe with the venturi opened up about .005

3) a 25 pipe has the venturi opened up after assembly so that they are all the same. (My speculation....presumably that is because when they cut off the pipe, they dont know exactly what the venturi size will be. You can't see it. That would mean that there is some significant variance in where the pipes are cut off. Some will be bigger than others)

4) an 25c pipe is a 25 Bb pipe just cut off shorter. Since that ends up way too small at the big end, it is then expanded in the last inch or so to fit tightly into the top slide tube. (lots of "design" goin on there!)

5) a 25H pipe is a 25c pipe but not expanded. It is wrapped by another tube of brass so the end fits tight into the top slide. It has nothing to do with "herseth" that is a total myth.

6) a 25A pipe is a 25c pipe cut off less that a 25c or 25h. It is longer by about an inch, and is expanded to fit the top tube. It has nothing to do with "adelstein". that is another total myth. He really sneered at the idea that those were named after players.

7) a 25S pipe is a full length Bb 25 pipe. Not related to "schlueter" in any way. The top tuning slide leg is only about an inch long. The pipe slides into the top tube about 2 inches and that is filled with solder to fill the areas where the tapered pipe leaves a gap. (That is a lot of solder by the way)

so ALL of those pipes are off the same mandrel!

the lacquer is nitro celulose (no secret there) but what was interesting was how much he hated epoxy lacquer. He said epoxy has "no sound". He said that over and over.

Since then I have never seen or heard any of that stuff from Bach, or a bach rep.

Hey captain kirk, keep posting. Your info is correct almost all of the time. I'm pretty sure that people get bugged by the fact that you have typos in your writing. The theory being that if you cant spell, you must be a moron. Most people are beyond that I would think (not all of them obviously) but maybe it would be a good idea to check the underlined words just before you submit. Typos mean absolutley nothing to me though

DOug M
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
Conn aficionado
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
check out my trumpet websites..
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.lipshurt.com

mcgovnor · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject: would

Would you please explain that description of the 43 pipe?
How could the venturi be the same if the tapered pipe is cut 1/4 further down?

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject:

Evidently according to him, (and this makes total sense), the 25 pipes are opened up after they are assembled, lets say to something like .346....
The 43 pipes are already lets say .346, so they dont need to be opened up like the 25 does. That does not explain though if the 43 pipes are more prone to being different venturi sizes. I suppose it's possible that what he meant was, the 25 is opened up quite a bit to get to .346 (imaginary number inserted by me) but the 43 does not need to be opened very much to get to .346

That is speculation. That was back in 1986! but I was taking notes. I dont have those notes handy right now, but have it memorized pretty good.

Someone who works as a tester at the factory would know. I would not be surprised if they would get in trouble for telling..... maybe anyways.

Doug M
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
Conn aficionado
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
check out my trumpet websites..
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.lipshurt.com

mcgovnor · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: i

i thought the 43 was cut from an existing 25

oliver king · Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject:

I acquiesce to the louder voice.

I know absolutely, that I know what I don't know. I've never measured any leadpipe. I never felt that I needed to in order to play one.

Genius recognizes its limits ... idiocy knows no limits.

I've never been to an Austrian beer hall, I don't even drink ... alcohol.
_________________
Blackbyrd
Burbank Flugel
Kanstul 930 Cornet
ZKT 1500

CHAMP · Veteran Member Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 102

shut it kirk

trumpetera · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject:

I've been visiting this forum for a good few years now, and lately I have had reason to ask myself the same question many times.

Why all the aggro against Kapt.Kirk?

Admittedly, if posts are too long, I tend to skim through them, but is this forum only for a select type of interested trumpet players/enthusiasts?

Since Bach is my brand of choice, mine and Capt.Kirk's wiews probably differ on some subjects, but to be frank I have a far easier time reading long rants criticizing the Bach brand, than short post telling him to shut up or somewhat longer posts that are just mocking.

My humble request is that these forums on TH remains the place for all kinds interrseted in trumpetrelated subjects, and that we remain at least civil to each other.
_________________
Bach NY ML 1935&1943 vintage Bb
Malone/ Bach /Lechner C (put together)
H.Ganter Bb and C rotary
Matthew Parker Natural
Co-principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera and Helsingborg Symphony
Principal trumpet Stockholm Baroque Orchestra

etntrpt · Regular Member Joined: 10 Oct 2009 Posts: 19

Seriously,
If it bothers you, rather just ignore his posts... no need for the snide comments.
But honestly, he is not wrong all the time...

trumpetera · Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:23 pm Post subject:

I obviously agree. And I'm sorry for diverting from the original posters subject.
_________________
Bach NY ML 1935&1943 vintage Bb
Malone/ Bach /Lechner C (put together)
H.Ganter Bb and C rotary
Matthew Parker Natural
Co-principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera and Helsingborg Symphony
Principal trumpet Stockholm Baroque Orchestra