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jocar37
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 Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: Why is Bb C? |
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Why and how it was determined that musical notation for the Bb trumpet would shift everything a whole note from concert pitch? It would be so much simpler if the trumpet parts were written so that Bb was notated as a Bb instead of as a C. It's like a "secret code" from a Hardy Boys book where the letters in the alphabet are shifted by one. Just a nuisance. The trumpet is challenging enough without such artificial complications. I'm taking a jazz workshop at a local college, with all kinds of different instruments, and it's a real drag trying to follow a discussion about a tune everyone else is reading in concert while I'm looking at my Bb chart. There just seems to be no good reason for changing the notation convention.
This may seem like a silly question, but it's been bugging me for a while and I can't recall ever seeing an explanation. I know I'm begging for inventive "theories" from the Last Comic Standing wannabes out there. But does anyone know how it really came about? |
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76strad
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Why is Bb C? |
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Bb Trumpet
C Trumpet
D Trumpet
Eb Trumpet
etc
etc
etc |
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Greenleaf
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, this is exactly what was done for the trombone, at least in bass clef. The open partials are tuned to Bb and they are notated as such.
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Long story short:
tradition.
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davidkoch
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenleaf wrote: | | Actually, this is exactly what was done for the trombone, at least in bass clef. The open partials are tuned to Bb and they are notated as such. |
That had always messed me up. Why is a treble cleff euphonium in Bb, while a bass cleff euphonium in concert pitch? I can compensate, and think a whole step off, but why is it like that?
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| davidkoch wrote: | | Greenleaf wrote: | | Actually, this is exactly what was done for the trombone, at least in bass clef. The open partials are tuned to Bb and they are notated as such. |
That had always messed me up. Why is a treble cleff euphonium in Bb, while a bass cleff euphonium in concert pitch? I can compensate, and think a whole step off, but why is it like that? |
There is a rule in notation where bass clef instrument parts DO NOT TRANSPOSE. That's why tuba and trombone parts will never be written in a transposed key, even though they may not (and are probably not, in the case of t-bones) be in the key of C. That's also why when a euphonium is written in treble clef (aka "Bb transposing treble clef"), it is written transposed.
The exceptions to this rule are instruments that transpose the octave: double string bass and bassoon. They sound an octave down and are written in bass clef.
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mchs3d
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| Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| The fingering system for the trumpet was designed to be as easy as possible. Tuba players have different instruments, but they don't transpose, they just use different sets of fingerings. The main note of the instrument would have been concert C, which does not sit well on that horn at all. As far as why they put the horn in Bb, that goes back a long ways in history. Trumpets actually used to be quite a bit lower. |
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kanemania
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: |
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Nigel: This is very special. Because if you can see ... the numbers all go to eleven.
Marty: And most amps go up to ten.
Nigel: Exactly.
Marty: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
Nigel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it?
Marty: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
Nigel: These go to eleven. |
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veery715
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Why is Bb C? |
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| jocar37 wrote: | | I'm taking a jazz workshop at a local college, with all kinds of different instruments, and it's a real drag trying to follow a discussion about a tune everyone else is reading in concert while I'm looking at my Bb chart |
I don't know about "everyone". If there are any sax players in your class, NONE of them is reading charts in concert. They'll be in Bb like you (soprano, tenor) or Eb (alto, bari). Clarinets (normal ones) are Bb. French horn players (unlikely in your jazz workshop) will be reading charts in F. The ONLY folks reading concert key charts will be piano, bone, bass or tuba, and flute or oboe.
There is a lot of history to the Bb key of trumpet and cornet. British band players all read transposing parts so they can play a different instrument and the fingerings will be the same.
If you don't like it you can always buy a C trumpet. But really, you just need to get over it and play your Bb. You can either read the Bb charts from the real or fake books, or learn to play by ear and that's the best way to go anyway.
asher
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BudBix
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| MAYBE it goes back to when trumpets didn't have valves. Euphs and Tubas are relatively recent inventions compare to the trumpet so it was possible to start a new tradition. Trombones have been around for a long time but they have always been able to play chromatically. |
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BudBix
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| Off topic but in a British-style brass band every part from Eb Cornet to BBb Bass is notated in treble clef in such a way that you can play every part with the same fingering. The exception being bass trombone which for some reason is written in bass clef. The idea is to make it easy for musicians to switch instruments. |
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butxifxnot
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| BudBix wrote: | | MAYBE it goes back to when trumpets didn't have valves. Euphs and Tubas are relatively recent inventions compare to the trumpet so it was possible to start a new tradition. Trombones have been around for a long time but they have always been able to play chromatically. |
Or maybe not. 
1- Natural trumpets were popularly in D. That's why just about every picc piece is in D.
2- The "tuba" predates the trumpet back in the day of the Romans.
3- Sakbut, anyone?
The mainstream trumpet is in Bb because Bb was considered the "stately" key back in the day of the beginnings of wind band. The early wind bands would play a lot of pieces in flat keys (marches and what have you), so to avoid having to constantly play in key signatures with a bunch of flats, the instruments would be pitched in flat-friendly keys. Namely Eb and Bb.
jocar,
there's your full answer. You mentioned that writing the trumpet in Bb "changes the notation convention." You have it backwards. The convention is that you write your parts in the keys of your instruments, and the big band has never known a trumpet other than Bb trumpet.  Keyed instruments are a fact of life, man, so you better go ahead and get used to it.
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BudBix
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| butxifxnot wrote: | | BudBix wrote: | | MAYBE it goes back to when trumpets didn't have valves. Euphs and Tubas are relatively recent inventions compare to the trumpet so it was possible to start a new tradition. Trombones have been around for a long time but they have always been able to play chromatically. |
Or maybe not.
1- Natural trumpets were popularly in D. That's why just about every picc piece is in D.
2- The "tuba" predates the trumpet back in the day of the Romans.
3- Sakbut, anyone?
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Well I did say MAYBE. To answer the question someone would have to produce some original trumpet parts and show us if they were notated in the key of C even though the orchestra was playing in D. Hopefully someone who has studied this can settle the question.
When I mentioned Tubas (and Euphoniums) I was thinking of the modern instrument. Based on the little I have read I don't get the feeling that there is an unbroken tradition from the tuba of ancient Rome to the modern valve tuba. When valved brass instruments were invented in the 1800's there seems to be have more of a cross pollination of natural trumpeters moving to valved trumpets and cornets. Seems reasonable that the traditions of natural trumpet playing would have carried over at least somewhat to the valved instruments. (i.e. transposing) Again I am by no means a music historian and if there is someone who is and can quote some source material I would love to know the most likely reasons why trumpeters transpose and other brass instrumentalists do not.
When I mentioned that trombones have been around a long time I was thinking of sackbuts. Since sackbuts/trombones could play chromatically from the start it PERHAPS it made more sense to write those parts in concert pitch. With valve-less trumpets you can only play a particular set of partials so why not notate everything in the key of C and just write the key of the trumpet to play at the top edge. Someone once called this "movable" Do. (e.g. Do Re Mi ...) |
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Greenleaf
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:06 am Post subject: |
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bmjcook
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Gidday
I have been told by a knowledgeable trumpet instructor and his mate, a top beer guzzler, that the trumpet is in the correct key and that everything else should be transposing. I concur!!
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aadak18
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The real question you should be asking is why Bb trumpets are the most common. There are all sorts of theories about that, some of which you can find in this thread. On a Bb trumpet, the tubing is the length such that the lowest note in the harmonic series with no valves sounds as a concert Bb, thus the instrument is notated in Bb. |
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Why is Bb C? |
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| jocar37 wrote: | | I'm taking a jazz workshop at a local college, with all kinds of different instruments, and it's a real drag trying to follow a discussion about a tune everyone else is reading in concert while I'm looking at my Bb chart |
If being able to do the "concert pitch is one step lower than me" or vis-versa is too difficult, I can't imagine that reading chords or changes is very easy (not to mention transposing). It's in the nature of the instrument. Each instrument has a long history (much of which has been described above) - the evolution of which put various instruments in various keys. They did it for a variety of reasons, none of which were future players convenience. Most of the reasons had to do with sound and usefulness in the current ensemble in which the instrument was used. Valved trumpet used to be in F - like Horns - so be glad it's only a step.
This used to bug me - in junior high. I got over it. The number of transposing instruments outnumbers the ones that don't (at least among winds). Be glad you don't have alto clef and tenor clef.
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Last edited by Crazy Finn on Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
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There are many threads on this subject. Almost all of them have less wrong with them than this one...
The Roman tuba has nothing to do with the modern tuba. It is absolutely the case that tubas did not exist until after the invention of valves.
There is no rule that bass clef instruments do not transpose. Yes, this is normally the case, but there are examples of bass clarinet being written as a transposing instrument in the bass clef, and of course horn and even trumpet parts are sometimes notated in the bass clef.
The simple answer to the original question is that as a rule, there are three kinds of instruments which are transposing:
1.) Instruments where historically players would have been expected to change instruments to play in different keys. This includes trumpets and horns which started as natural instruments (and where changing instruments was typical in the early days of the valve) and also instruments like the clarinet (in orchestras it is assumed that players use B flat and A clarinets.)
2.) Instruments which are conceived as part of a consort, that is a range of sizes all with the same fingerings pitched in different keys and octaves like saxophones an saxhorns.
3.) Auxiliary instruments like English horn, alto flute and so on which use the same fingerings as the "main" instrument.
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Why is Bb C? Easy answer...
We're living in the Bizarro World, man.
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jocar37
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| Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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jocar,
there's your full answer. You mentioned that writing the trumpet in Bb "changes the notation convention." You have it backwards. The convention is that you write your parts in the keys of your instruments, and the big band has never known a trumpet other than Bb trumpet. |
Regardless of whether the chicken or egg came first, the convention of calling Bb C doesn't make sense. It is neither necessary nor useful to have, say, the third space in the treble clef be a Bb on a trumpet, but then still call it a C and have it be a C for C-register instruments.
| Quote: | | If being able to do the "concert pitch is one step lower than me" or vis-versa is too difficult, I can't imagine that reading chords or changes is very easy (not to mention transposing). It's in the nature of the instrument |
It's getting easier, but I've only been playing trumpet for about 3 years - played piano for close to 50. But the way the sounds are notated on the page have absolutely nothing to do with "the nature of the instrument."
Where transposing becomes more of a problem is when we're discussing a new concept arising from one of the tunes we're playing. Having to "transpose" the conversation in my head, even if it takes a nanosecond while trying to keep up with the real subject matter at hand is a nanosecond that the subject matter proceeds without me. It's like trying to learn quantum mechanics in French. If you're not fluent, you'll think in English, then translate. It just isn't as easy to learn the new subject when you're distracted with translation.
Perhaps the better way to phrase the question is that why weren't Bb instrument parts written in Bb, Eb instrument parts in Eb, etc.? Wouldn't take a darn thing away from the individuality of the instruments, and it would make discussing and following the music a lot easier.
Aside from "tradition," it doesn't seem there is a good answer - except maybe Dale's. The "get over it" response sounds to me like the old justification for fraternity hazing - "I did it, so why shouldn't you?" |
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