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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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There is no difference |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1491 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Bflatman wrote: | There is no difference |
The above is a sign of indifference _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9385 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: |
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"There is no difference", said the man who's never shown up to a brass band rehearsal with a trumpet...ha ha _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I guess a lot of it is "attitude".
By which I mean - how you approach it mentally, how you expect the sound to be mellower and (to borrow a word from earlier in the thread) more intimate... and how you expect bigger mouthpieces to work, which makes the above two more likely.
I guess a decent amount of it is confirmation bias... if you played a "long" cornet with the same model bach mouthpiece as a fairly average trumpet it might be difficult to tell the difference - but if you're comparing a Bach 37 with a 3C in the end to a Besson Sovereign with a Wick 2, it's going to sound very different.
At the same time.. there is definitely a difference in feel, and a difference in feedback. |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | "There is no difference", said the man who's never shown up to a brass band rehearsal with a trumpet...ha ha |
Exactly where did this come from.
I sat in a brass band rehearsal 6 weeks ago with a peashooter trumpet and a wick 4b mouthpiece in it. They didnt like it, not because it didnt sound like a cornet it sounded pretty cornetlike as it happens, but because it didnt "look" like a cornet. That is how shallow those guys are.
But lets not fight on this topic.
I contend that there is no difference, and I challenge you to prove there is.
Of course you might select a trumpet that sounds trumpet like and a cornet that sounds cornet like and then use that prejudiced and slanted example to prove your case. But that would be meaningless.
Undoubtedly more cornets sound cornetlike than sound trumpetlike.
This is due to the individual wraps and bell. But some trumpets have more conical tubing than some cornets, and some cornets have more cylindrical tubing than some trumpets.
I have a cornet that is identical to a trumpet I own, and the two sound identical with identical mouthpieces. Hey I dont make the rules.
And far from indifference I do care about tone and sound and about cornets and trumpets. I happen to play a trumpet but equally might play a cornet. It depends what sound I am looking for. I often play a cornet, and whether I play on a cornet or a trumpet I sound gorgeous, my audiences tell me I do and they pay me for sounding gorgeous.
There is no difference between a trumpet and a cornet, they both have conical bore, they both have identical bell they both sound the same with the same mouthpiece. but if you choose a different cornet with different bell, and more conical tubing it sounds darker and more cornetlike.
Pardon me for the lengthy post but you guys seem to love making fun of members in here so I thought I would play along. |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bflatman wrote: | There is no difference |
I wish that you were right.
I am now more than two months in Thailand with my Ambassador (long) cornet, played with my Arturo (MV3C copy) cup with a modified 7bb and the stupid horn refuses bluntly to sound as a trumpet. I am getting a little bit fed up with that unremovable cornetsound. |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | "There is no difference", said the man who's never shown up to a brass band rehearsal with a trumpet...ha ha |
True. That will get some people quite animated.
See also: showing up for rehearsal to play flugel, with a cornet because the flugel is in the shop. You'd think the world was going to end right there on the spot.
Meanwhile, the cornet section is playing on 9 different model cornets and 9 different mouthpieces. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 234 Location: France
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:46 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | Meanwhile, the cornet section is playing on 9 different model cornets and 9 different mouthpieces. |
Heh heh, and at least one of those will be a Schilke 14A4a. |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Look, it really isnt an issue, I will say it again.
I have sat in a brass band rehearsal with a trumpet, and I sounded like a cornet.
Ok it was a brighter sounding cornet sound, but still cornetlike. The only reason that I didnt sound dark was because this was a lightweight peashooter that can sound shrill, It still sounded dark enough.
With a different trumpet it would have been even easier to blend.
Listen to some Red Nichols. Sounds pretty trumpetlike to me or am I missing something.
I agree if you take most cornets and try to make them sound like a trumpet you wont get far, thats usually because they are built heavier with heavier brass, it makes a difference due to resonance.
It is easier to make a trumpet sound like a cornet, but still they do have different sounds, but it is more like the difference between a crossover and a sports car, they are different vehicles, but some crossovers will beat the pants off a sports car, they are both cars they differ in small design areas.
The only real trumpets are natural trumpets, these have cylindrical tubing, modern trumpets have conical tubing thats a fact, the difference is in a cornet they usually have more conical tubing than trumpets do, but even this is not true in all cases.
Also trumpets tend to be built lighter from thinner brass, and therefore sound brighter, but this is often not true as well.
It is really unclear the difference when you look at just a few examples of each instrument.
The only real difference and I will state it now.
Trumpets have trumpet mouthpieces and look like trumpets, cornets have cornet mouthpieces and look perdy |
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Dennis78 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 673 Location: Cincinnati
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: |
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We sit much much MUCH tighter in Brass Band! I could not imagine trying to get a trumpet squeezed in there _________________ a few different ones |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8974 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:24 am Post subject: |
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It is an issue in every brass band in which I have played and with every player I respect (I do not know you so please don't take offense, I imply nothing about whether I would respect your playing or not). And the issue has been sound, not looks, as most players and conductors go more by sound than looks, at least IME.
The difference in sound is due largely to the bell flare and additional conical tubing. The mouthpiece does make a difference but, while it can really darken a trumpet, does not turn it into a cornet, at least IME.
My short cornet looks very little like my trumpets; they both have three valves, a receiver, and a bell, but the rest of the design including wrap and bell flare are completely different. And there is a visible difference in the amount of tubing that is conical.
No doubt I am nowhere near the player you are and thus need more than just a mouthpiece switch, but I use a cornet when I want a cornet sound, a trumpet when I want a trumpet sound, and follow the direction of the composer and band when in doubt. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2894 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:10 am Post subject: |
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My test in that video showed that the sound WAS different even with the same mouthpiece. Clearly there are some cornets that sound more like a trumpet and some trumpets that sound more like a cornet, but most regular cornets have longer leadpipes and bigger bell flares than most regularly available trumpets.
There is a masters degree dissertation where someone tested whether people could tell the difference between a trumpet and cornet. Very few people could unless they were trumpet or cornet players themselves. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Seymor B Fudd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Oct 2015 Posts: 1491 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Bflatman wrote: | Look, it really isnt an issue, I will say it again.
I have sat in a brass band rehearsal with a trumpet, and I sounded like a cornet.
Ok it was a brighter sounding cornet sound, but still cornetlike. The only reason that I didnt sound dark was because this was a lightweight peashooter that can sound shrill, It still sounded dark enough.
With a different trumpet it would have been even easier to blend.
Listen to some Red Nichols. Sounds pretty trumpetlike to me or am I missing something.
I agree if you take most cornets and try to make them sound like a trumpet you wont get far, thats usually because they are built heavier with heavier brass, it makes a difference due to resonance.
It is easier to make a trumpet sound like a cornet, but still they do have different sounds, but it is more like the difference between a crossover and a sports car, they are different vehicles, but some crossovers will beat the pants off a sports car, they are both cars they differ in small design areas.
The only real trumpets are natural trumpets, these have cylindrical tubing, modern trumpets have conical tubing thats a fact, the difference is in a cornet they usually have more conical tubing than trumpets do, but even this is not true in all cases.
Also trumpets tend to be built lighter from thinner brass, and therefore sound brighter, but this is often not true as well.
It is really unclear the difference when you look at just a few examples of each instrument.
The only real difference and I will state it now.
Trumpets have trumpet mouthpieces and look like trumpets, cornets have cornet mouthpieces and look perdy |
Many years ago I bought a Eb/D trumpet (Selmer, same as Maurice..) and asked if I could use it as I was playing the soprano part in the brass band. Of course it was brighter than a Eb cornet but I could make it sound rather soft by blowing it like I would a cornet (=not flamboyant, shrill, "I´m the leadchair hero"), a bit subdued. Had to think "this is a trumpet" so do not etc. But I could drown the band if I had wanted to....
Now, I used a Bach 1 1/4 cornet mpc and a Bach 1 1/4 for my trumpet. The sound from my cornet was OK during the early seventies, but gradually the sound "profile" for brass bands changed to darker projection when it came to cornet sections. Today, year 58 in the brass band I use a Wick Ultra, deep but not as deep as the Wick 2, 3. So another sound. But - I have tried sometimes using my cornet for lead in bigbands, with the 1 1/4 Bach, no way this would function. The much brighter, more penetrating sound of a trumpet is required. Thus to me this consitutes the clearcut difference; Brighter, more penetrating, a "broader tonal spectrum".
Could add that 1970 I bought my King super 20, much because it had a bit more "core" than every other trumpet I tested (Benge, Bach, Conn, Schilke, you name them) and that seemed to suit me as I also played solo cornet in (same) a brass band.. But still it is a trumpet and there is a huge difference between the sound of this King, same mpc:s and my Getzen Custom Series cornet. Differences I stated above. Furthermore this old King still differs from most modern trumpets soundwise - right now I´m testing a Bach 1B commercial, much brighter.
So put that one in your pipe and smoke it! _________________ Cornets: mp 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Yamaha YCR6330II
Getzen Eterna Eb
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1974) |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9385 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Bflatman wrote: | ...I contend that there is no difference, and I challenge you to prove there is.
Of course you might select a trumpet that sounds trumpet like and a cornet that sounds cornet like and then use that prejudiced and slanted example to prove your case. But that would be meaningless.
Undoubtedly more cornets sound cornetlike than sound trumpetlike.
This is due to the individual wraps and bell. But some trumpets have more conical tubing than some cornets, and some cornets have more cylindrical tubing than some trumpets... |
I wasn't making fun of you, just making a joke. I see a difference there, but if you don't, I apologize.
That said, it appears that you just made a point that cornets and trumpets can be different, depending on how they're built. I'll be the first to agree that there are cornets that sound like trumpets and trumpets that sound like cornets. The point I was trying to make (probably not very well) is that you can't make a blanket statement that there's no difference between cornets and trumpets. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I myself am perplexed by those who say that a player's approach to a cornet must be different than the approach to a trumpet. Maybe it's because my trumpet and cornet play nearly identically, both being Buescher 400s. Maybe it's that I haven't listened to enough brass band music, though I have watched "Brassed Off" a number of times (fun movie).
Now, the Buescher 400 cornet and Buescher 400 trumpet sound wildly different. The trumpet has more of a brilliance to it and as you push it, it lights up wonderfully. The cornet has less brilliance and more "core" and if you push it, it doesn't light up, it just gets bolder, if you know what I mean by that.
So, in summary, they were designed to sound different but to blow the same.
Perhaps it's just that the bell of your cornet is closer to your ear so you hear it differently and adjust.
So I guess my answer is... I don't know.
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Richard III Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2671 Location: Anacortes, WA
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:39 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, you blow through a trumpet and into a cornet. Totally different to play. _________________ Richard
Today's Trumpet: 1937 Cleveland Toreador
Today's Cornet: York Eminence
Today's Mouthpieces: Cleveland T and C |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: |
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The myth of 'cornets all have more conical tubing' again pops up. It's obviously sometimes true, you could build one right now to make a point if pressed on it, but in common production models, it doesn't hold up.
It's been a while since this was linked, so it bears doing again.
Main article:
http://robbstewart.com/Essays/TrumpetSchmumpet.html
Data table showing real world examples:
http://robbstewart.com/Essays/Trumpet_Schmumpet_abridged.htm _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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epoustoufle Veteran Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2015 Posts: 234 Location: France
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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While it's a slightly controversial topic, I think we can all come together around the fact that trumpet is better. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9385 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Now you've really stirred the pot!!!!! ha ha _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 7196 Location: Greenfield WI
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Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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Richard III wrote: | In my experience, you blow through a trumpet and into a cornet. Totally different to play. |
Doesn't that depend on the specific instruments?
Tom _________________ 1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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