View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ConnArtist Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2008 Posts: 2833 Location: La-la Land (corner of 13th and 13th)
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I haven't read the article yet, but riffing off of what's being said...
Seems all genres of all arts "die", but then comes the REVIVAL. Think about the Blues... originated basically by poor black folks, played on porches, or perhaps in juke joints... now mostly played and listened to by college educated white folk, after it's 60s revival.
Bebop will come back, but with whatever twist of the times when it is fully revived.
I think some loss of interest by the general public can be due to rather indulgent behavior. My jazz improv instructor really made a point to us of how important it is to read/control the crowd for a successful gig... create positive feedback by picking up on the tempo, key, and mood they need to rile them up or simmer them down. If you can barely hear yourselves over their crescendo-ing conversations, or they seem glazed over... adjust accordingly.
Just a few thoughts from a lowly peon. _________________ "Stomvi" PhrankenPhlugel w/ Blessing copper bell
1958 Conn 18A cornet
1962 Conn 9A cornet (yes, the Unicorn )
Reynolds Onyx cornet
c. 1955? Besson 10-10 trumpet
1939 Martin Imperial Handcraft “Model 37”
1986 Bach Strad 37 ML |
|
Back to top |
|
|
MikeyMike Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 1680
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
khedger wrote: | MikeyMike wrote: | oliver king wrote: | We all stand on the shoulders of giants, it's the way of the world. |
Great thought. But I wonder if those who did (or tried to) stand on the shoulders of giants have been replaced by those who couldn't find a giant with a GPS and a stepladder. Boatloads of drums, guitars and saxes fly out of stores from coast to coast. We're surrounded by Ipods, internet radio and satellite delivery. There are books, DVD's and training aids the old guys never dreamed of. But the music isn't getting better. |
this is the REAL tragedy as far as I'm concerned. The reason is that the few (statistically) talented people who decide to pursue this music inevitably do it at one or more schools like Berklee, NTU, whereever. Schools are great (I went to Berklee) and they can teach you things to make you a very facile musician.
But they can't teach you how to be a creative musician or even how to develop whatever inherent creative potential you posess. For that you need a community in which you can function and grow as an artist. A community in which you can constantly play, develop, groom an audience, and mature artistically.
THAT in addition to their own individual genius, is why we had a couple of generations of great players. I don't think we would have ever heard of Diz, Sonny, Monk, Bird and all of the others if they hadn't live at a time that offered them the opportunity to come up through the ranks, learn from old masters, get heard by audiences and play, play, play. Don't get me wrong, I'm not romanticizing here....I know these guys paid heavy dues and the world wasn't a rosy place...but they DID have the context within which to really develop and it wasn't at university, it was in clubs and studios.
keith |
Interesting thought. It was a battle in those days and there weren't a whole lot of "career options" for those who failed. Perhaps it's simply too easy today. All of it. Why bother going to a club and paying good money when recordings are so cheap? Download a tune for a few pennies or just steal it. Don't like it, move on. Plenty more out there.
Meanwhile club music continues to deteriorate due to diminishing audiences and recorded music proliferates. Not much of it is terribly good but there is plenty of it. Today anyone can make an album. And just about anybody does... _________________ Ahh... that old case smell. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
beagle Veteran Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 419 Location: Vienna, Austria
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Many of the bebop era jazz players were very passionate about having their music recognised as a legitimate art form. No form of popular music stays popular for ever and it wouldn't be much fun if it did. Although many forms will continue to keep going long past their use date with the support of a small group of dedicated followers the only way to achieve immortality is for a form to be accepted into the art establishment and get government funding as something worth preserving. Inevitably this leads to a transformation of the music from a living vibrant thing to something of a museum piece.
Shakespeare's plays were popular entertainment for the masses back in the 1500s and Mozart was an 18th century popstar. Things change. If Charlie Parker were alive today he would be proud of the immortality and status the music he and his peers created has attained.
Jazz music will live on only by new creative minds developing their own styles influenced by what is going on around them. Perhaps there won't be as many live venues, but people will still want to listen to music and will find ways to do so. Many people will be content with listening to the meaningless pop drivel of the day, but there will always be both musicians and listeners who crave something more and they will seek each other out. Jazz is not mainstream music, but it is contemporary music. Part of the appeal of any subculture is that it is young, energetic, subversive and slightly dangerous. These elements disappear when it is taken over by the respectable and middle-aged. We can't do that to jazz and expect that it won't lose some of its spirit in the process.
The new jazz players won't call their music jazz and might not even know what jazz is but they will be carrying on the tradition regardless. They won't learn about their music at school because it will be too new. Older musicians might look at what the young kids are doing and say it is not music or even that it is killing music. That's what the swing players said about the beboppers. It's not killing music, but it is replacing the music that went before. As jazz players we need to learn to recognise that this is not a bad thing.
Rob _________________ Schagerl Sig. James Morrison
Selmer Paris Chorus 80J |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mcahynuacrkd Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 1149
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Rob Said:
"Jazz music will live on only by new creative minds developing their own styles influenced by what is going on around them. "
Re:
Well stated Rob. This is certainly the approach that I take with my music, including the new CD that I am working on "TULSA" in particular. _________________ Dr. Michael Schmidt the world's loudest trumpet player. Play the best, play Calicchio. Calicchio 3/9 large bore trumpet and Tulsa Duda Calicchio Flugelhorn. Please listen to the free samples of my trumpet playing at:
www.myspace.com/trumpetofthelord |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Foxytrpt Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 277
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jazz is alive and well. Overseas at least. _________________ "What's the point of playing if you can't improvise?"
Bb Custom XO RG-V
Flugel Custom XO
Bach 3C
Bach 3FL
Hamanaga Custom 3C/Fl
www.myspace.com/foxytrpt
www.myspace.com/brassy_chicks |
|
Back to top |
|
|
junkyt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 696 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is much talk of this article in the jazz blogosphere. I wrote at length about the subject on my blog and got some great comments from other musicians and bloggers. You can read it here: http://oneworkingmusician.com/jazz-a-museum-piece-or-a-living-breathing-artform-its-up-to-us
Teachout throws out a lot of numbers from that NEA study but they do not paint an accurate picture. Statistics rarely do.
Suffice to say that I think Teachout asks an irrelevant question. The only question we need to ask is what can we do as jazz musicians and fans to make jazz relevant in today's culture.
If jazz has any problem at all it's a problem of perception. But I see many young jazz fans at my and my friend's shows in Seattle. From my perspective in the trenches jazz is alive and well. _________________ Check out my new blog about the life of a working musician: OneWorkingMusician.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
lmaraya Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 620
|
Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thomasmarriott wrote: | I know some great musicians who are terrible performers.
"Jazz" has been segregated from other types of music for a long time. Jazz is played in jazz clubs, written about in jazz magazines and played on jazz radio stations. People are intimidated by that and when they do venture in, they don't hear any songs they recognize and they see guys wearing tuxedos or suits on the stage.
Let's face it, "Bye Bye Blackbird" was a pop tune in my grandmother's time. How irrelevant to play a "jazz" version of a pop tune nobody remembers as a pop tune except the geriatric among us?
Maybe if they legalized marijuana?......... |
I think Miles understood this, that is why he played Michael Jackson tunes sometimes |
|
Back to top |
|
|
pied piper Regular Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2006 Posts: 25 Location: Las Vegas, NV
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:49 am Post subject: is jazz dead? |
|
|
Without having read the article and instead choosing to read everybody's response, all really good btw, here's my dime's worth. I don't think jazz is dead or dying. How long has it been since Louis Armstrong died? 38 or so years and he is still discussed and loved by young and old. Or, Bird, Trane, or Miles. We still love their music. We study them. We have institutions dedicated to preserving and expanding their legacy. All this decades after their physical death. Who will really remember Britanny or Justin or (insert any pop star name here) decades after their death?
Look at the guys and gals (foxy trpt.) posting here. All fairly young.
What needs to be discussed is how to better market our music to those who love it. A lot of people love jazz. Maybe not as many as in the swing/big band era but that could change with changes in the way our music is packaged and marketed.
I just bought and have listened to Thomas Marriott's new recording and just love it. Brad Goode who also posted here is one of my heroes. I play one of his tunes (Snake Charmer) on every gig I do with my group. These are not old guys making old music. It's fresh and accessible.
Jazz isn't dead or dying...we just need to get out of our shed's and start doing what jazz musicians do. Absorb what's out there and integrate that influence in our music.
Now I will probably go read the article.
BTW...
check my group out at
www.blu7music.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Foxytrpt wrote: | Jazz is alive and well. Overseas at least. |
_________________ Bill Bergren |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cjl Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 2423 Location: TN
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
tommy t. wrote: | Is Baroque dead? Is Classical dead? Is Romantic dead? Is Serial dead? is Minimalism dead?
Is Opera dead? Is the Broadway Musical Comedy dead?
What does it mean for a music genre to be "dead?"
Does it matter if a music genre is dead? |
What does it mean for a music genre to be "dead?" In this case I would consider Latin. It is called a "dead" language though many still study it in high school and beyond. As far as I know, you can still get a doctorate in Latin studies.
"Dead" in this context means that it is not undergoing the change that everyday usage brings.
Baroque, classical, and romantic styles are dead. No one is truly living, breathing, and creating viable, new music in these styles any longer. Baroque and classical, especially, are getting attention due to interest in period performance practices but that's not living. Even though Prokofiev wrote a "classic" symphony, it was as an excellent study of the period, not an attempt to bring it back to life. These are more akin to archeological digs.
To live, a musical form, like a language, has to be daily embraced by people who live it, breathe it, and push it to evolve. With a language, we only really know after-the-fact when it has changed. Then we look back and say: this word, this phrasing, this style has become an acceptable part of the language.
Music is kind of like that, too. It seems like we rarely realize when an evolution is occuring (sometimes we do - I think people recognized Beethoven's 9th for what it was as soon as they heard it). Somewhere, I hope, the next direction in classical is taking place and we'll recognize it 50 years after the fact.
I don't know much about jazz, but it seems more immediate; more close-to-the-moment. Somewhere, somehow, someone had better be coming up with something new, something different, something unexpected. Or jazz is, indeed, dead.
Maybe it is just dormant, waiting for someone special to come along and kick-start it.
-- Joe |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
cjl wrote: | tommy t. wrote: | Is Baroque dead? Is Classical dead? Is Romantic dead? Is Serial dead? is Minimalism dead?
Is Opera dead? Is the Broadway Musical Comedy dead?
What does it mean for a music genre to be "dead?"
Does it matter if a music genre is dead? |
What does it mean for a music genre to be "dead?" In this case I would consider Latin. It is called a "dead" language though many still study it in high school and beyond. As far as I know, you can still get a doctorate in Latin studies.
"Dead" in this context means that it is not undergoing the change that everyday usage brings.
Baroque, classical, and romantic styles are dead. No one is truly living, breathing, and creating viable, new music in these styles any longer. Baroque and classical, especially, are getting attention due to interest in period performance practices but that's not living. Even though Prokofiev wrote a "classic" symphony, it was as an excellent study of the period, not an attempt to bring it back to life. These are more akin to archeological digs.
To live, a musical form, like a language, has to be daily embraced by people who live it, breathe it, and push it to evolve. With a language, we only really know after-the-fact when it has changed. Then we look back and say: this word, this phrasing, this style has become an acceptable part of the language.
Music is kind of like that, too. It seems like we rarely realize when an evolution is occuring (sometimes we do - I think people recognized Beethoven's 9th for what it was as soon as they heard it). Somewhere, I hope, the next direction in classical is taking place and we'll recognize it 50 years after the fact.
I don't know much about jazz, but it seems more immediate; more close-to-the-moment. Somewhere, somehow, someone had better be coming up with something new, something different, something unexpected. Or jazz is, indeed, dead.
Maybe it is just dormant, waiting for someone special to come along and kick-start it.
-- Joe |
It means there are more people on stage than in the audience. _________________ Bill Bergren |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
One of the theories often propounded by jazz educators is that we are creating the new audience for jazz. This is sometimes cited as the answer to the question: "Where will all of these new players find work. " ( I've never
liked this response, as is doesn't answer the troubling question, it simply rationalizes the existence of jazz programs.)
Jazz musicians DO comprise the majority of the audience for creative jazz. I'm sorry, but this is true. I recently attended a performance by the Ben Monder Trio at a club in Brooklyn. Everyone in the audience had a gig bag.
I've seen the model for presenting jazz change drastically in the last 25 years. When I started out, the older cats led the bands. The clubs were booked by people who were themselves, jazz lovers and promoters.
Now, the clubs are booked by business people, and they are looking for
a way to get bands for free. They want the musician to do his/her own
advertising via email, facebook, TRUMPET HERALD, etc. The musician notifies his "following" (translation: friends, family, students, teachers)
and charges them a cover. The club sells these people food and drink.
It reminds me of the old Judy Garland/Mickey Rooney films where they put on a show in dad's barn and invited their neighbors. This is now the way the music business operates.
This is confusing for old farts like me. I was raised in a different tradition.
My mentors stressed that it was poor form to ask for a gig. You were supposed to live on your reputation. If you could deliver, the bandleaders
and club managers would come to you. This used to work great for me, but it's not working anymore; and it's not because I stopped being able to
deliver.
A club will hire the cats who can bring them warm bodies with no effort
on the club's part. SO: entrepreneurship is essential for today's jazzer.
The future of jazz depends upon the musicians' willingness to self promote.
I have some friends who have always been great at talking places into trying jazz. If we get more folks like this involved, jazz will continue to survive. ALSO: if more quality players felt that they could revitalize their
local scenes rather than taking off for bigger cities, we would have a healthier national scene.
I'm really struggling with this, myself. I still think I'm living in 1985, when the best player got the gig. I'm not. There's no gig to get, unless you create it yourself. I'm trying to teach my students how to be excellent musicians, at school, not on the bandstand where I learned. This is the new reality, deal with it. I'm learning, from my students, how to make a
self-promoted gig into an event. They know what's happening better than I.
bg |
|
Back to top |
|
|
junkyt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 696 Location: Seattle
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: | A club will hire the cats who can bring them warm bodies with no effort
on the club's part. SO: entrepreneurship is essential for today's jazzer.
The future of jazz depends upon the musicians' willingness to self promote.
I have some friends who have always been great at talking places into trying jazz. If we get more folks like this involved, jazz will continue to survive. ALSO: if more quality players felt that they could revitalize their
local scenes rather than taking off for bigger cities, we would have a healthier national scene.
I'm really struggling with this, myself. I still think I'm living in 1985, when the best player got the gig. I'm not. There's no gig to get, unless you create it yourself. I'm trying to teach my students how to be excellent musicians, at school, not on the bandstand where I learned. This is the new reality, deal with it. I'm learning, from my students, how to make a
self-promoted gig into an event. They know what's happening better than I.
bg |
Bingo! I know it's a tough transition, Brad, but change in inevitable and the new model is artist/entrepreneur. You've stated the case well.
Continue to teach this to your students! _________________ Check out my new blog about the life of a working musician: OneWorkingMusician.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jadickson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Jun 2006 Posts: 1298 Location: Raleigh, NC
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: | One of the theories often propounded by jazz educators is that we are creating the new audience for jazz...
|
Yes, Facebook has become an extremely powerful promoting tool. It utilizes the most powerful but illusive marketing tool: word of mouth from a friend.
Like BG said, many of my musician friends really create and promote their own gigs through Facebook and Myspace. On Facebook, you can instantly invite everyone on your "friends list" to an event. Or you can create a group for people to join like "Live Music in Gary, Indiana" for your hometown, and post concert info through that group. On the invitation, you can add links to other websites, like the website of the venue or to your Myspace page.
The downside is that you can only advertise to people who are on your list of friends or who have joined your group. The other downside is that people get on Facebook to socialize, not necessarily to hear their friends advertise things to them... so don't overdo it. _________________ Justin Dickson
Middle school band director. Still learning.
www.BandmateTuner.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cjl Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 2423 Location: TN
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Billy B wrote: | It means there are more people on stage than in the audience. |
I've played jobs like that! And when you're in a quintet, that's might depressing.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
tommy t. Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Mar 2002 Posts: 2599 Location: Wasatch Mountains
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
cjl wrote: | Billy B wrote: | It means there are more people on stage than in the audience. |
I've played jobs like that! And when you're in a quintet, that's might depressing.... |
You are in good company, man.
Wednesday night, the day after Ronald Regan was elected President, there was a program at Sandy's Jazz Revival, north of Boston. Piano, drum, and bass were recruited from Berklee to back the big name draw. Four people on stage, two couples in the house plus the owner serving drinks.
Oh yeah, The fourth musician was on trumpet -- Dizzy G. Dizzy said "where were all you people last night?" Appareantly on election night NO ONE came to hear Dizzy play live in the middle of a metropolitan population of 4 million or so including the music students from Berklee, Boston Conservatory, Boston University, NEC, Longy School of Music, etc.
Tommy T. _________________ Actually, I hate music. I just do this for the money. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Oct 2003 Posts: 1292 Location: boulder, colorado
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good posts, all.
I still feel that we bear the responsibility for whether or not people perceive
jazz negatively.
Everybody's trying to be hip, but very few are trying to be communicative. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Xenoman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2001 Posts: 1209
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
bg wrote: |
Everybody's trying to be hip, but very few are trying to be communicative. |
Bingo Brad...
I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said already but great discussion. I'm enjoying the dialog and learning more than a few things. _________________ Eric M. Brewington
http://www.jazzbrew.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I did read the article by the WSJ's drama critic. Audiences may be dwindling and aging, but I don't believe that means that jazz is dead or even in danger of dying out. Yes, if you use a very narrow definition of jazz to mean bebop and screech showmen, maybe it's dying out. Do I look like I give a bleep?
Let's remember that jazz goes way back. Dixieland, blues, R&B, swing, ragtime, much of what's collectively known as pop, it's all jazz. Maybe I live in the wrong part of the country to see the problem as clearly, but around here, you can find good attendance at big band events, traditional jazz events, dinosaur rock (R&B, rockabilly, even country swing), and the broad category of post-1950 hodgepodge - audiences may not be as large as they were in better economic times, but they're out there, and they're enthusiastic. Look at the big traditional jazz event every summer in Sacramento - you may not have the good taste to revel in that kind of jazz, but there are certainly vast throngs of people who do.
The same goes for the period music scene - it's alive and well here. Performers, instrument makers, concerts - all alive and well.
In our local schools, while there may actually be a token concert band, the real emphasis is on jazz band. And the programs are healthy, despite the continuing assault on funding for non-football classes. The concerts are well-attended, there are lots of kids involved in the programs, and they're playing fairly adventurous stuff along with the standard dreck. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
|
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ChopsGone wrote: | I did read the article by the WSJ's drama critic. Audiences may be dwindling and aging, but I don't believe that means that jazz is dead or even in danger of dying out. Yes, if you use a very narrow definition of jazz to mean bebop and screech showmen, maybe it's dying out. Do I look like I give a bleep?
Let's remember that jazz goes way back. Dixieland, blues, R&B, swing, ragtime, much of what's collectively known as pop, it's all jazz. Maybe I live in the wrong part of the country to see the problem as clearly, but around here, you can find good attendance at big band events, traditional jazz events, dinosaur rock (R&B, rockabilly, even country swing), and the broad category of post-1950 hodgepodge - audiences may not be as large as they were in better economic times, but they're out there, and they're enthusiastic. Look at the big traditional jazz event every summer in Sacramento - you may not have the good taste to revel in that kind of jazz, but there are certainly vast throngs of people who do.
The same goes for the period music scene - it's alive and well here. Performers, instrument makers, concerts - all alive and well.
In our local schools, while there may actually be a token concert band, the real emphasis is on jazz band. And the programs are healthy, despite the continuing assault on funding for non-football classes. The concerts are well-attended, there are lots of kids involved in the programs, and they're playing fairly adventurous stuff along with the standard dreck. |
You missed the entire point.
Check out the research and make your own assumptions.
http://www.nea.gov/ _________________ Bill Bergren |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|