2nd trumpet down?

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:40 ]

[johntpt]

Great post Walter! You have explained well an important part of every 2nd trumpeters job.

You are right about not always just jumping down an octave every time the 2 trumpets are in unison. Brahms creates special problems in this respect. By the time he wrote his orchestral works (his 1st Symphony was written in 1876) valved trumpets were in common use - 1876 was also the year of the 1st performance of Wagner's Ring! However Brahms the conservative kept writing largely only the notes natural trumpets could play. There are many cases where it might make sense to take the 2nd part down an octave but if Brahms knew he could have written it that way but chose not to, should we do it? Unfortrunately I have no Brahms parts in front of me right now to provide examples - perhaps someone else could think of a few.

Sometimes it is common practice to fill in notes not even written in the 2nd trumpet part. This is a common practice for the opening of Schumann's 2nd Symphony - the 2nd trumpeter would play the 1st trumpet part down an octave (until the lsat note - low C).

John Urness

[NelleTrumpet]

Great post, Walter!

I agree that parts should be played as written whenever possible. Sometimes unison parts are too loud. This is a good opportunity for the second trumpet to help the principal out by playing the note alone and letting the principal lay out. Most of the time, if a composer wanted octaves, he would write the parts this way. Look at Schubert's Unfinished Symphony where the trumpets are in octaves practically the entire time. He did this to get the texture he wanted. It does become a problem with earlier works where the natural instrument could not play the lower octave. Then an interpretation has to be made. I would lean toward having one player on a unison part rather than octaves in these situations. This way, the original texture is maintained without having the part be too loud. IMHO, the more authentic, the better (short of playing natural trumpets - no thanks).
_________________
Danelle Wilbraham

[Chicagoman]

Hi All,
Great posting by the way!


Well, this idea of how to play 2nd trumpet is very useful. I play a LOT of 2nd trumpet in the Orchestra, and have great instruction on how to play 2nd trumpet. I'll just share with you all the "basics" of how to play 2nd trumpet.

1. Depending on the repertoire, unisons should be octaves. Debating authenticity is not really useful considering the editions of music today, are NOT the original manuscripts of the composers. Octaves are meant to create a depth and color of sound that is most appropriate for the Classical and Romantic eras. However, if there are chordal phrases with unisons on both 1st and 2nd trumpet, the unisons should remain.

2. Unisons REQUIRE the 2nd trumpet to play 50% softer than the Principal. Also, NEVER come in before or hang on after the Principal has played. If you have a unison note, make a diminuendo so as to not risk holding on too long.
If in doubt when the principal will come in, come in late! If you are playing with a great principal, he/she will always conduct you.

3. Octaves REQUIRE the 2nd trumpet to play around 100 to 150% louder than the principal. If the audience is to hear the octave, there is no debating this. You have to feel like you are kicking the Principals' butt on volume.

4. Follow the styling of the Principal. Use your ears to hear how phrases build and resolve.

5. LISTEN very carefully to intonation. This cannot be stressed enough.

6. Don't conduct from the 2nd chair. This is rude.

7. Never suggest anything unless the Principal asks first.

8. Hope to God that if you are playing German Classical or Romantic music, the Principal has the decency to have a rotary trumpet. You don't play French instruments on German music!

9. If playing with a poor Principal, PRAY!!

I'm very fortunate to know this information. If you don't know any of this, LEARN. It will save your career. 2 of my teachers are very famous 2nd trumpets, Will Scarlett(who was mostly assistant principal), and John Hagstrom. Good luck to all of you 2nd trumpeters!

Sincerely,

Chicagoman

"Ahh, the unheralded position....2nd trumpet"

[zachenos]

"8. Hope to God that if you are playing German Classical or Romantic music, the Principal has the decency to have a rotary trumpet. You don't play French instruments on German music! "

I think the word "Decency" should be replaced with "money." Just my two cents

Zach

[big brian]

...

[johntpt]

Actually C rotaries are becomming more and more popular worldwide. Konradin Groth, principal of the Berlin Phil from 1974-1998 stated in an interview in the March 2001 ITG "Later, when I was principal with Martin Kretzer, we used C trumpets - I played a Lechner C trumpet...In the orchestra, I mainly played the C trumpet." I've seen many videos of him in the BPO and every time he was playing a C trumpet. I saw one which included the Ginastera Estancia - he sounded awesome on a roatry C!

If I'm not mistaken the newer principal in Vienna also plays on a C. There's a video with Boulez conducting the Debussy Nocturnes and Bartok Mandarin and if I remember correctly the 1st player was playing a C trumpet.

Certainly in the American orchestras the rotary C has been standard for a long time, including Chicago, NY, LA, SF, Houston, St Louis, etc.

John Urness

[Chicagoman]

Brian,
It was never my intention to be "snooty", as you put it. Just my God honest opinion. Plus, my knowledge and opinions are limited to U.S. Orchestras. I'm fully aware of the fact that the Bb Rotary is commonplace in Europe, Brian. And that we use piston C trumpets for a number of German Romantic pieces, here in the U.S. Since my playing experience is only in the U.S., I make no inclusion of European players into my statement. If you guys use pistons, well then grand.

We need to clarify something. Please don't take what I say out of context inre "hearing a sound and playing it." You can't produce EVERY sound color on one instrument. Herseth was the absolute epitemy of sound color and timbre, and HE used period instruments throughout his career, when the repertoire(conductor) called for it. John is correct in his statement about the commonplace of C Rotary trumpets here in America. That is just the way things are here. As for having/not having the money to afford a rotary, is irrelevant. As a principal, you need to be prepared for all situations. The context of this statement pertains to professional level playing only. Of course, students will generally not have the money for several instruments. The ultimate factor for what instrument to use lies with the Maestro, so it would be good to be prepared. I wouldn't be caught dead saying, "Uh, I'm sorry Maestro, I can't give you what you want."

This is to everyone:

I have to get something off my chest. I haven't been posting lately because of some the petty and over-sensitive posting going on here on the website in general. I haven't been posting, but have certainly been observing many occasions of mis-construed statements and bickering. I haven't been posting in my forum because it seems that people aren't interested in it. I'm frankly sick of folks beating each other up over things that aren't important to music anyway. Since people don't like what I have to say, maybe I'll just pull the plug and leave you alone. Talk is cheap anyway. I'll just stick to making statements on the stage.

Frustrated to no end,

Chicagoman

[johntpt]

Dan-

No need to get so frustrated. Everyone enjoys what you have to say - you are a valuable member of the TH community. Your posts are full of good information showing a musical knowledge well beyond your years.

The purpose of a message board like TH is for sharing ideas, knowledge, and opinions with other trumpeters. Everyone has their own ideas and opinions and there will always be differences.

Before posting I try to remember that a strong opinion in a public forum will certainly be followed by strong replies, and I moderate my posts accordingly.

Let's keep TH respectful and friendly. Keep the great posts coming - TH is a great resource for all!

JU

[Mzony]

Clearly there must be further discussion when playing germanic music. To begin with, in Europe the trombones are a smaller bore size and in orchestras like Vienna, the horns are completely different than that of an American Orchestra. So often times conductors like seeing these rotary trumpets, because it makes them "feel" like they are conducting a European orchestra. But this does not always make it more authentic. Especially when we talk about these smaller rotary instruments competing with large bore trombones on Strauss, Mahler, and even some Bruckner.
So the issue may be, what is the instrumentation for the piece. Certainly Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, and Haydn are doable on a rotary instrument. However, not all Bruckner symphonies may be comfortable given the expanded intrumentation in the brass.
Just my two cents...I am still trying to figure it all out too.

[johntpt]

You're absolutely right Mzony. It can be difficult to compete on Bruckner if the horns and trombones are playing their regular instruments. We just played Bruckner 4 two weeks ago and decided to play on the pistons for that very reason. Having said that last year when the NY Phil played Bruckner 4 here in Mexico City, Phil and crew were playing the Monkes and sounded awesome. It also helps that there was an assistant to double during the loud passages. Also, the trombones were using German trombones to match. I know that Herseth used a special larger bore Monke C for Bruckner - that horn matched the rest of the brass very well.

Nicolas Harnoncourt, well known for recording baroque and classical orchestral music with "period" instruments, has recorded some Bruckner symphonies. His Bruckner 4 with the Concertgebouw is very interesting. According to the liner notes the entire brass section used "authentic" instruments - rotary trumpets, smaller bore trombones, and "simple" horns - I'me not sure what simple horns are, maybe single horns instead of the heavier double horns of today. The result is a much leaner lighter sound - quite different from how Bruckner is usually played today.

JU

[Mzony]

Hi John,

I think your points are correct. The rotary trumpet is only ONE piece of the puzzle. Sure, we can get very large bore rotary trumpets to make them easier to play, but does THAT make THE authentic sound? I don't know.
In my experience with these trumpets, the only way to get the complete picture is to have everybody else follow suit and switch their instruments on those occasions.
As far a "simple" horns are concerned...Though there are clearly people better educated on this topic then me (like the guys from europe). I do believe that in Vienna they still use horns that you have to change tubes in order to change keys...Or something like that. I probably blew my credibility on that statement.
But just like rotary trumpets, they do make a mellow sound at a certain dynamic. However, above Mezzo something, they get very lively. Just like rotary trumpets do when you start to head in the loud direction.

[PC]

Hi,

Just a brief point: in all the videos I own or the concerts I've seen on TV, featuring either BPO or VPO, the 1st trumpeter is always playing a C rotary, with trumpets further down the line being in Bb. And this goes back at least to the early 80's. Also when I got to see BPO in concert (1988), Konradin Grothe (sp?) was playing a C in Brahms 1, 2. I also got to see VPO in action on a piece for winds by Bernstein (conducted by Bernstein, it must have been in 84 or 86), where some young guys where doing wild shakes on D-E above high C with Bb rotaries.

I myself own only a bad Miraphone Bb (intonation is awful and no trigger, I know that the problem isn't entirely me or my usual mouthpiece, since I've used both on Monke and other rotaries I have had the chance to try with great satisfaction!), which I still use from time to time for the challenge and the beautiful almost flugel sound (great on mahler 3 posthorn solo).

Pierre

[PC]

Hello again,

to return to the original subject of the thread, I, for my part, have always played 2nd part as written unless specifically asked not to by the 1st trumpeter. This because it is much more fun and challenging for an otherwise hard-to-keep-awake trumpeting experience! I recall especially fun 2nd trumpet parts in the Beethoven symphonies, if I am not mistaken, with a lot of written Ds in the stave and Fs on top of the stave, bouncing back and forth to low Gs below the stave, à la Arban p.125! Sometimes this happens quite fast, as in Beethoven 2 and 7. Provided you have the technique to play these jumps convincingly (of course with no clams and without sorely sticking out with different tone or intonation compared to the 1st trumpet), backing slightly off on the high note not to disturb the ego of Mr. 1st, then nobody should care or notice even as the lower note is always taken care of by the french horn (OK, I know about resultant tones and stuff, trumpet octaves are different from trumpet and horn in octaves, but that is the way the part would have been played at the time, anyway).

Cheers,
Pierre.

[trptmaster]

hey chicago man. who do you think you are? if im not mistaken you are a student at witchita state. you come off like you are some seasoned veteran and a wealth of knowledge. a bunch of people have read the Jacobs books and have studied with people from the CSO and are alot older and have a lot more experience than you. don't take yourself so damn seriously. the way your post comes off about playing 2nd trumpet would lead me and others to beleive you are playing 2nd trpt in a major symphony. the tone of your messages is really annoying

[Murray]

The rotary trumpet has indeed become popular in the USA in the last 20 years, probably because Herseth started to use one, then the NY Phil, and then, everybody started to jump on the rotary bandwagon. Some conductors really like them, but I am convinced that most of them wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a rotary and a piston trumpet, if they were blindfolded. Of course, the rotary trumpet looks so different that EVEN A CONDUCTOR can tell the difference. I think that the appeal is mostly visual. Let's not forget that in Brahms for example, the trumpet is one of the LEAST important instruments. Sure, every now and then the trumpet has a prominent role, but that usually lasts a few bars, and then it's back to it's secondary role.

So if it so important to use rotaries, why shouldn't all of the winds be playing German instruments? German oboes, clarinets, flutes, horns, trombones...why just the trumpet, with it's usually secondary role? I can just imagine suggesting to my colleagues to use a German clarinet

So then, WHY is it so important that a rotary trumpet be played in Brahms? Don't ask me, since I don't have the answer. If I had my way, I would take my rotary, and throw it as hard as I could into the ocean. It seems as though they are a big fad in the USA, although even German orchestras are gravitating towards piston trumpets.

A number of years ago I played in a conductors' orchestra in Salzburg, Austria. There was an Austrian fellow playing there also,who had a rotary. After trying my Bach Bb, he wanted to buy it. HE couldn't believe how easy it was to play. The strangest thing, was that when he tried my Bach, (with his Giardinelli mouthpiece, which he also used on his rotary), he sounded like he was still playing his rotary! He had the same rotary sound on my Bach as on his rotary....go figure.

[trumpet2]

Guys- let's just remember- playing 2nd is an art in itself. "Chicagoman" may well be a student yet, but he has some generally sound ideas concerning the playing of 2nd trpt. Although I would tend to disagree with him on the use of rotaries, it totally depends on the orchestra and conductor that may or may not require them- it doesn't make things better or worse, just different. Good luck to you all!
Bob

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:41 ]

[Bugleboy21]

I'd like to add a twist into the thoughts here...I've had the good fortune to learn and perform on baroque trumpets. Only after thinking about how the instruments and orchestras must have sounded with these horns made me realize the importance of the second tpt taking certain notes down to play in the octave. The biggest factor besides our ability to play those octaves on modern instruments is that our horns have way more brilliance and projection than baroque/slide trumpets. Playing a unison would increase the volume to more that what is needed, just by physics alone. Maintaining the octave will help to produce a more subdued sound will a full range of timbre, when you listen to the two tpts together with an orchestra. Chew on that one!
_________________
SSG Laurence Dean
US Army TRADOC Band
Fort Monroe, VA
You have to be a S.M.A.T. B.oy to transpose well! -William Vacchiano

[RockyM]

Walter,

This is a very interesting thread and I'm glad you started it!

Playing 2nd trumpet is sort of like playing offensive line. You'll never get the glory, but where would the 'team' be without you?! Playing 2nd is indeed an art in itself, and requires a totally different mindset.

I think to be really successful at it, you have to first and foremost be comfortable with being a role player, which is difficult for a lot of us trumpet players to do. That doesn't mean you wouldn't like to play principal if given the chance, but it does mean being cool playing 2nd and doing whatever you need to do to make life easier on the principal and making the section/orchestra sound its best.

All the elements you mention about pitch, blending, matching style, easy to get along with, etc. are critical to playing 2nd. This isn't something a lot of people can, or are willing to do.

A corillary to this, is a GOOD principal recognizes the value of a good 2nd and treats them very well because they recognize their contribution and appreciate it. The principal doesn't need a massive ego contradicting, arguing etc. with the decisions they make. Good input is one thing, but the final decision is their's (or the conductors) and the 2nd must live with it and not cause problems.

I'll never forget the first time I heard an example of a great 2nd trumpet...it was a recording of the Chicago Symphony playing Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony. There is one part where the trumpets are in octaves in a dramatic section of the piece...that lower second octave gave me goosebumps because it is played perfectly; all the elements you'd mentioned earlier were there, and loud enough to balance Bud on top. I still think of that when I play 2nd and try to emulate that level of playing.

I think it's those moments, as well the knowing you're making the whole orchestra sound better that can make playing 2nd fun, and also a challenge...you just have to look for different challenges than you do playing principal.

I also agree that the part should be played as written whenever practical...besides, it may be one of the few times you actually get to "play 1st"!

Rocky Meredith
Seattle, WA.