| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mr. Benge
Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 231
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Hahahah, he would make a GREAT politician. 7 paragraphs and not even the answer to the question, that's great! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jazz_trpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001
Posts: 5734
Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mr. Benge wrote: | | Hahahah, he would make a GREAT politician. 7 paragraphs and not even the answer to the question, that's great! |
He answered both the questions I asked of him.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lipshurt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 2642
Location: vista ca
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
the first question was asking if the tweak was an adjustment to the venturi.
to that question he said:
"It IS NOT TRUE that the tweaking is merely opening up the venturi. As a matter of FACT, opening the venturi can work against an optimum tweak and wreak havoc on the way the horn plays."
he sort of answered it i guess, except the tweak is an adjustment to the venturi, but it is not a OPENING of the venturi, (which is usually a disaster)
The tweak is (or "could be" an adjustment to the edges of the venturi, though. Bobby really just says what the tweek "is not" not what the tweek "is".
thats cool though, I am pleased that he took the time to write that long of a response. Plus he is dead on about opening the venturi being a bad idea.
_________________
Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trpthrld
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 4820
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KanstulBrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 714
Location: California
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dbacon wrote: | Tweaking is NOT something that will replace your need to PRACTICE and LEARN TO PLAY!
The most important thing said...  |
This
_________________
Charles G Hargett
Brass Industry Consultant
(Kanstul, Shires, BAC, Benge) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mikeytrpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 5028
Location: Richfield, Minnesota
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And people wonder why more pros of Bobby's level don't bother posting?
It's like a bunch of hormonal teenage girls in here......
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ohiotpt
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 990
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As this discussion of post market “tweaking” continues, putting things in perspective may set the tone back on course.
******WARNING! NERD ALERT!!!
I was listening to the DVD commentary of Star Wars episode II (or maybe III). George Lucas pointed out that the movie had to be snatched out of their hand as deadlines occurred, otherwise they would never put the movie out since they were NEVER quite satisfied. But ultimately a product had to be delivered to theaters. They still “tweaked” the movies for the DVD version
********NERD ALERT OVER!!
Another thread discussed Doc Severisen's constant changing of trumpet design vs. the need of the manufacturer to locked in a design to build and put out a product. I'm sure his same desire for improvement that brought him to the shed for all those hours was the same desire to “improve” his actual horn. A never ending process?
So in the discussion of “tweaking” it needs to be pointed out that ultimately the manufacturer has to come up with a design, put it into real world production, with real world cost constraints, and put out a product in the quantity required. There's ALWAYS things that couldabeen done. This doesn't equal shoulda been done.
_________________
-fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mbailey
Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 183
Location: Huntsville, AL
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon Arnold wrote: | | I paid $75 for the tweak. Best $75 I have ever spent. I started the thread because the tweak helped my horn a lot. I just played a 3 hour big band gig last night, and not once did the horn back up on me. ... Since I live in Ohio, I had to ship the horn to his house and let him tweak it. It made a difference in the open-ness past high C and I can use more air when I play. The sound is full in rich in all registers. ... If you are happy with your Z, don't get the tweak. If you feel it is stuffy, get it tweaked. Its that simple. |
+1 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazzhorn04
Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dbacon wrote: | Tweaking is NOT something that will replace your need to PRACTICE and LEARN TO PLAY!
The most important thing said... |
I don't think you're referring to the OP in this post, but in case you are...
The OP is a very good friend of mine and has been for years. He didn't get the tweak because he thought it would make him a better player, he got it because he felt it would make the horn a better player. Let me tell you, he is on killin soloist. As a lead player I love having him on the 2nd book, except for when he gets excited and tries to overblow me (notice I said tries) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jon Arnold
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2002
Posts: 2027
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Thanks for having my back jazzhorn04. Most people on here probably don't know I can play and I am not looking for equipment to give me something I do not already possess. The tweak works and that's it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 513
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mikeytrpt wrote: | And people wonder why more pros of Bobby's level don't bother posting?
It's like a bunch of hormonal teenage girls in here......
|
What about hormonal boys? I kknow, I have a teen aged son.
Yamahas need a lot of help.
_________________
"Political power grows from the barrel of a gun."
- Mao Tse Tung -
1935
Yes libs, your hero said that!
OhhHH YeaAAHHH!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trptdork
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 197
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"Yamahas need a lot of help."
Sorry, but NO modern mass produced horns need that much help. And especially Yamahas. They're known to have an above average consistency. You certainly couldn't compare them to Bach. There is simply no contest; Bach's are horrendously inconsistent, and have more lemons in the line than any other manufacturer.
Maybe you're thinking about Kanstul's as being superior, but I've never been that impressed with the designs. Just my personal taste.
I'd rather play a Yamaha over any other mass produced horn. Clearly, so would a lotta pros. So please, don't single out Yammies as some kind of brass pariah. Thanks. Now, back to the topic at hand.
_________________
Bach 72 bell/25 pipe
Warburton 5s/Qm
Bach 6C |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dbacon
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
nyctrumpeter
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1992
Location: New York City
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jazz_trpt wrote: | In the interests of getting an authoritative answer on the nature of the procedure, I went to the authority. I posed the questions (a) whether the tweak was an adjustment to the venturi, and (b) whether the adjustment was to correct a design or manufacturing flaw. Herewith, the response from the Tweaker himself, posted here with his permission:
| Bobby Shew wrote: | The bottom line is that within the world of physical science ( devoid of opinion ), it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to make any two objects 100 % identical. Every piece of brass has similar yet different molecular structure. There are countless variables, minute tho they may be, in the construction of each and every object on the planet. With ANY trumpet, the variables will be in the brass piece / rod that various of the parts were cut , drilled, hammered, annealed, etc., from. BTW, EVERY horn manufacturer deals with similar variables. When purchasing an instrument, people play several of the same model until they find the one that "feels better for them". It's standard procedure and there is nothing wrong with doing this. To expect every horn of the same model by whatever company to play THE SAME is nothing but ignorance of scientific information.
Each soldered joint might possibly have a minutely different amount of solder. These are done by hand and will vary just by human nature. The mounting of a bell bead could have similar variables as could ANY of the other parts. Of course, all of these do not necessarily have the same depth of affect on the way the instrument plays.
The closer to the player, the greater the effect, usually. Maynard Ferguson used to say that "If the first 15 inches works, the whole damned thing will work!". That's not a piece of scientific fact but it does have merit to some degree. It IS NOT TRUE that the tweaking is merely opening up the venturi. As a matter of FACT, opening the venturi can work against an optimum tweak and wreak havoc on the way the horn plays. The tweaking process that I use was developed by Bob Malone who was a major consort in the original design of the 6310Z and the 8310Z . It consists of numerous ( at times ) adjustments to various seam locations as required by the blow of the instrument. It is not possible to get all of the horns tweaked to being identical. What my goal is with the tweaking is to get each and every horn adjusted to a point where a sensible player can get the maximum efficiency out of his horn under varied circumstances. Be aware that a lesser-developed player is not likely going to have the higher levels of sensitivity regarding kinesthetic ( muscle memory ) references. Beginning thru Intermediate players usually can play just about anything that works reasonably well and is not too large or heavy for them.
When I tweak horns directly from YAMAHA and being sent on to a dealer who has ordered them to be tweaked before being put up for sale, I always tweak the horn to satisfy MY way of playing, since that is the way the instrument was originally designed. Having said that, I can only get them "in the ball park" and not every one will play exactly the same but they will ALL PLAY WELL! Some tweaks can take a considerable amount of time while others require a much shorter tweak period.
If on the other hand, I have the owner of the trumpet sitting with me, I can vary the tweak to suit his or her particular approach as well as needs. People the world over all have personal variables in how and what they play. I DO NOT believe one horn is suitable for everyone so it is up to each player to be sensitive to these variations and eventually find the instrument that suits them the best, and not to buy an instrument because it has someone's name affiliated with it.
Tweaking is not necessarily new although Bob Malone's method is quite different than anything I had ever been aware of prior to him teaching it to me. This is not even to attempt to say that his method surpasses all others. It's just the method he and I have had the greatest amount of success with. AND, it works on ALMOST ANY brand of trumpet, not just YAMAHA. One should also be aware that horns can gradually go "out of tweak" and might need a slight re-adjustment somewhere down the line. A word of suggestion: I have moved away from using the stiff and wiry "snakes" for cleaning and am sticking close to the soft swab types of cleaners. My favorite is REKA, made in Germany, and utilizes foam balls which when wet, easily clean all of the inner tubing. The chamois swabs on a string are also excellent. These types are not as aggressive to the soft brass which can be thrown out of tweak by overly-aggressive brushing. It's sorta like brushing your teeth. Good cleaning without making your gums bleed!!
Before the entire field of internet junkie trumpeters get it all wrong and start throwing darts back and forth at each other and at US, I hope this info will clear up some of the queries regarding what happens with the tweaking process. Does every horn need it? Maybe not. I'd say if everything feels good and you are not fighting the horn with stuffiness or restricted sound quality, you're probably fine and should leave things alone. Tweaking is NOT something that will replace your need to PRACTICE and LEARN TO PLAY!
Bobby Shew
The "Tweaker" |
Thanks to Bobby for such a generous response. I hope that this answers some questions about the process. |
Thats awesome to hear from him on this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazzhorn04
Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 291
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dbacon wrote: | | jazzhorn04 wrote: | | dbacon wrote: | Tweaking is NOT something that will replace your need to PRACTICE and LEARN TO PLAY!
The most important thing said... |
I don't think you're referring to the OP in this post, but in case you are...
The OP is a very good friend of mine and has been for years. He didn't get the tweak because he thought it would make him a better player, he got it because he felt it would make the horn a better player. Let me tell you, he is on killin soloist. As a lead player I love having him on the 2nd book, except for when he gets excited and tries to overblow me (notice I said tries) |
Did you read Bobby's post?..got nothing to do with ur friend...i'm sure he's on killin soloist.. |
Actually, I didn't read Bobby's post. I was on my way out when I saw your post so it was a bit of quick reply (hence the typo "he's ON killin soloist") Thanks for the clarification
Oh and now that i've taken the time to read instead of jumping in head first, I agree with your original post! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AverageJoe
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 4116
Location: Atlanta, GA
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lipshurt wrote: | the first question was asking if the tweak was an adjustment to the venturi.
to that question he said:
"It IS NOT TRUE that the tweaking is merely opening up the venturi. As a matter of FACT, opening the venturi can work against an optimum tweak and wreak havoc on the way the horn plays."
he sort of answered it i guess, except the tweak is an adjustment to the venturi, but it is not a OPENING of the venturi, (which is usually a disaster)
The tweak is (or "could be" an adjustment to the edges of the venturi, though. Bobby really just says what the tweek "is not" not what the tweek "is".
thats cool though, I am pleased that he took the time to write that long of a response. Plus he is dead on about opening the venturi being a bad idea. |
I did an internship at Yamaha back in 1999 that allowed me to do some extensive Q&A on the 6310Z design with both Bobby Shew and Bob Malone (the 8310Z didn't come out until '04). The back of the horn (tuning slide, valve section and bell) was pretty EASY compared to the leadpipe, which is where they spent the VAST majority of their time. One of the critical dimensions on the leadpipe is the bore size at the venturi. I was playing a 6310Z at the time, and when I had it tweaked, they actually had to REDUCE the bore size at the venturi (among a couple of other things). When I got it back, it was right-as-rain!
I don't know what else is considered when tweaking a horn out, but I can tell you that they considered all kinds of small things when designing the horn, including bracing (# of braces and placement), finish (raw brass vs. lacquer vs. silver), spit valves on the 3rd valve slide (the early 6310Z's didn't have them, but they were later added after Bobby started really testing the finished production horns in A/B tests), delryn/plastic vs. brass valve guides, etc, etc, etc...
They really put a lot of work into maximizing the desired result for Bobby when designing the horn, so suffice it to say that he knows how to tweak different areas of the horn to get it working the way he envisioned it. Based on what I got when talking to them, the leadpipe is examined THOROUGHLY, and other tweaks are performed as needed. FWIW, Bobby played my horn at a clinic and knew immediately that the venturi was too large before he even measured it...
FWIW,
Paul Poovey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
drncollazo
Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 208
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Did you ask Bobby Shew what specifically is the tweak on the 8310 Z?
I'd like to have it done to my trumpet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
AlfaFreak
Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 379
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
With the discussion of mass production and consistency I propose the question.
Why do mass produced cars such as Toyota's etc break down inconsistently? Some lose oil and and seize engines. Other have random computer failures. According to some the mass production accuracey should suggest they ALL break down with the same fault at the same time. Hmm. Uncontrollable variables? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
