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Advice on first mouthpieces to buy



 
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bobbyshewfan
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:49 am    Post subject: Advice on first mouthpieces to buy Reply with quote

Hi All,

I am a 16 year old trumpet player and have completed my grade 6 trumpet and am taking my grade 5 jazz soon. i play in a wind band and a jazz orchestra as well as playing cornet in a british style brass band.

the only mouthpieces i own are a Yamaha mouthpiece 11B4 which came with my yamaha YTR4335G and a dennis wick 3b mouthpiece which i use with my besson sovereign cornet.

i am looking to buy some new mouthpieces for both instruments to start off a collection, more importantly for trumpet, and would like to ask some advice on which type i should buy as i have never bought any before.

i play both jazz and classical on trumpet so am looking possibly for a mouthpiece suited to jazz and one suited to classical and i am looking for a good all around mouthpiece for my cornet.

i am also unsure of the size and shape i should buy, my current mouthpieces are fine for me to play. my budget is not exceptionally high so no custom or very expensive mouthpieces please.

thanks for your time
sorry for the long post
xx
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, sounds like the pieces you have now, especially the Wick are good choices in "conventional" size ranges.

If you want a middle of the road trumpet mouthpiece and don't want to spend a lot of money, something around a Bach 3C in size is pretty much the "anchor point" for most mouthpiece collections. I'd be willing to bet you can find one of these to borrow or audition almost anywhere that brass players hang out, or buy instruments and accessories.

I don't know what is easily obtained where you live, or how the pricing goes, but here Bach mouthpieces are very affordable. If you find that size works for you, I would suggest something like a Curry 3C if you can get them easily there without excessive shipping charges. Very similar, yet I think an improvement over the original.

If you have friends, or music directors or know other players with trumpets, ask if you can experiment with mouthpieces they have already. You can save yourself a lot of money by ruling out certain rims or cup shapes that you just don't like.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:40 am    Post subject: Advice on Reply with quote

Hello,
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it..." Though if you are wanting a more open sound than the 11B4, you will need to go bigger. The advice for a Bach 3C is fine. You may not find the piece very comfortable, as your 11B rim/cup doesn't have a sharper bite like you may experience the Bach. Though the Bach will/may give you a bigger sound. Remember, if you go bigger/deeper you will initially lose range. Some people will even say you may lose endurance. Change of mouthpiece may take weeks to understand what the piece will really do for you. Once you start the safari, it may take a while and money to get what you really want.
Personally, I would have you try a Schilke 13B, or find a Warburton dealer and spend days with the parts and pieces... and a tuner.
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RNJTrumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on Reply with quote

Christian K. Peters wrote:
Hello,
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it...find a Warburton dealer and spend days with the parts and pieces... and a tuner.


Fully agree with these statements. The whole top/backbore match exploration has been the most productive of my recent (ongoing) search for the perfect combination...that is if the rim feels good. If not, Kanstul makes tops compatible with Warburton backbores.

Initially this may look like an expensive route, but it can save you money in the long run...especially if you find the top you like, then you can use it on your cornet too.

Further regarding your cornet, if you like the Wick...stick with it - DF Music is a great source of information on all Wick products.

Good luck!
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brassjunkie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't recommend looking at alternative mouthpieces unless the pieces you are currently using are not doing the job for you. But if you really feel impelled to start experimenting I would start with different varieties of "Y11B4" mouthpieces. By that I mean look at mouthpieces with similar IRD but slightly different rims or slightly deeper or shallower cups. For example you could try all the different Yamaha's in size 11 to start with. What I am trying to say is make small changes to what you have so you can evaluate what each variable in mouthpiece design can do for you.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Advice on what mouthpieces to buy Reply with quote

It is hard to say much from what you've said . . . . I would think the first thing to do would be to settle on a cup inside diameter. The Yamaha 11B4 comes in at 16.46mm with a shallow cup and a 3.65mm throat. The Wick 3B for cornet is 16.75mm with a medium cup and a 3.9mm throat. It is hard to make direct comparisons between these two, but, in general the cornet piece is bigger. It has a bigger ID, a deeper cup, a bigger throat and a bigger backbore. While some folks change diameters easily, many do not and try to hone in on a particular diameter, changing other measurements depending on the sound wanted and their own embouchure. Both these pieces are closest to the diameter of a Bach 2 or 2C.

You don't say whether either mouthpiece plays any better for you or whether you want a brighter or darker tone. For many people the shallow cup of the 11B4 would give a rather bright tone, but perhaps not for you.

If I were you I would try to find some mouthpieces to try. Maybe friends can let you try theirs. There is a wealth of information on the internet on mouthpiece measurements so that you can know what you are trying. While some folk find that it takes a lot of playing time to figure out what piece works for you, I have always found that a bigger or smaller piece works better almost immediately for me.

Once you have figured out what diameter works for you, you can begin to consider the other dimensions of the piece and what you need or want there. Of course, a smaller cup will go brighter and possibly make the high register easier, while possibly making low tones less pleasing. I would not start with screw rims because you could easily make a mistake at this stage and end up with a rim or backbore you cannot use that cost $75, whereas a used one piece Bach or Wick or Stork would be cheaper and also probably more saleable. Once you are clearer on what you want, a set of rims and backbores would make more sense.

The Stork website has some interesting, if technical articles on mpc selection and one article of pictures of lips and recommended diameters for them which might be of some help. When you try mouthpieces, how they feel, the attack and how easy your production is are important, but you might also want someone else to check your tone out front.
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brassjunkie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing you should know if you start experimenting as that every mouthpiece manufacturer measures the IRD differently which means you cannot often use their published specs to make useful comparisons between different makes. There are also plenty of mouthpiece comparison charts on the internet which are based on manufacturers specs and hence are often way off the mark. The Kanstul mouthpiece comparator http://myplace.frontier.com/~vze8iort/kanstul_mpc/CompareJR_FF.html based on mouthpiece scans is more useful but I have found the scan profiles can hide significant aspects of rim and cup design which means two pieces that appear to match can feel quite different to play.
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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Advice on first mouthpieces to buy Reply with quote

bobbyshewfan wrote:
i am looking to buy some new mouthpieces for both instruments to start off a collection, more importantly for trumpet, and would like to ask some advice on which type i should buy as i have never bought any before.

It is not necessary to build a collection of mouthpieces - it is something that most players build up over the years (mostly because of the mouthpiece safari that you seem keen to indulge in).
You cannot judge a player by the number of mouthpieces he owns.

I am assuming you have a teacher - ASK THEM

They know your playing, they know your chops, they know how you sound on what you have currently got, they know what is good (and otherwise) with your playing - the advice you receive on TH (good though much of it might be) is based upon guesswork and nothing else.
It is possible that you are already playing on something that works for you and a mouthpiece safari is completely unnecessary.

Quote:
i play both jazz and classical on trumpet so am looking possibly for a mouthpiece suited to jazz and one suited to classical and i am looking for a good all around mouthpiece for my cornet.

If you have a Wick 4B for the cornet, you already have the most popular cornet mouthpiece in existence. It has this place in the cornet world for a reason - it works.

Quote:
i am also unsure of the size and shape i should buy, my current mouthpieces are fine for me to play. my budget is not exceptionally high so no custom or very expensive mouthpieces please.

I have highlighted part of your post that I think you should read again. If you sound great on what you are currently playing (again I would remind you that we are all guessing on how you sound, only your teacher will KNOW) then you could save your money (buy music, buy mutes, buy your teacher a beer?)

It is very easy to go out and spend quite a large amout of money on an assortment of mouthpieces and then have them all sitting around doing nothing, because they don't work very well with you on the end, in your playing circumstances.
It is also very possible that you will not only end up preferring your original mouthpiece, but also have spent quite a bit of money to prove this to yourself.

I have got a student who was asking about a possible mouthpiece change - I lent him a pile of my old mouthpieces (covering a variety of makes and sizes) and after a couple of weeks he said he preferred the sound, flexibility and attack of his original mouthpiece, but that it had been interesting playing a variety of them to see what else was out there.

In short - discuss this with your teacher and be prepared for them to say that you don't "need" to go on anything else.

Yes, we are trumpeters and we all like having toys (I have about 75 mouthpieces kicking around not being used and about 50 mutes doing similar!!) but at your stage I would suggest it might be a better decision to save your money.
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TMPTChewie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kelly Screamer trumpet mouthpiece -$26
http://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmscreamer/index.asp

I wish this was around when I did a lot of marching band and drum corps in high school. Cheap reliable mouthpiece in my opinion, its also a good mouthpiece to practice the upper register with.

If not the mouthpiece take this bit of advice instead, buy USED and do your research, nothings worse than buying a $65 paperweight or dust magnet if you know what I mean.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.storkcustom.com/Vacch%20trpt%20specs.htm#PUMPED_CUP

Start here I think Stork makes a great MP and their prices are not high if you shop around. Mouthpiece Express normally has them at the $49 price point.

The Vacchiano Series is what I would consider their bread and butter line good all around MP's! Their Studio Master and Pumped Up Series are more speciality MP's.. Because the Vacchiano design is a plend between the more current C cup and the older style V cup it is an easy transition and kind of the best of both worlds. So a 3C Stork Vacchiano would be an ideal Jazz piece. If you have a tighter leadpipe or have lots of air and do not have to play for long intervals before you get a break the pumped up series is really nice lots of volume and projection but they will tire a lot of people out if not used to it so I almost never recommend the Pumped up series. I think Stork has a more comfortable rim profile then Bach. Since the V cup is classic for Cornets and the British Brass Band Sound something that blends the V and C cups like the Vacchiano cup shape I think is the best of both world. I think the upper register is also easier to reliably hit and work in with V cup then a C cup or B cup.

Curry makes some nice playing very comfortable Cornet MP's! Again Mouthpiece express has them I think for around $49 so that is what less the 25 British Pounds??? Kanstul sells MP's direct through their web site and they have plenty of MP designs to choose from in the $55 price range and they go up from their toping out at $115 I think for their Monette Clones.

Personally I think jazz requires a more comfortable rim profile with a softer bite then most other forms of music. It is harder to bend notes and slur with an aggressive bite. usually something between 7C to 3C size and shape will work perfectly for Jazz it is all about finding the right rim profile, cup depths and back bore size for you!

Unless you are a power house with huge air capacity and insane air support I would not get crazy on throat or back bore at your age. I would focus mostly on rim contour and cup depths at this point. See if their is a music store near by where you can try a lot of different pieces. I can not say this enough but rim contour is so important! The 3C size piece is varying depths and back bores has proven to be the Gold Standard in Jazz. Exceptions are numerous but it is the standard for this type of playing! I would also think about Gold plating the rim of what ever favorite you have or find. A gold plated rim is slicker and less sticky feeling then silver and lets the lips move easier I think.
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lburrows
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would either stick with the Denis Wick 3B on cornet, or if you feel that you would prefer a cup diameter a little more similar to your trumpet mouthpiece, you could try the Denis Wick 4B.

Alternatively, if you prefer the larger cup diameter of the Denis Wick 3B, you could try a Yamaha 14B4 on trumpet, which is pretty similar to a Bach 3C.

All the best

Lou
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