Looking for fat tone and easier upper register

[ericd]

Hey Guys,

First post here. I've wondered about bore sizes and if that drastically affects the tone and register of the horn. I am playing on a Yamaha Bobby Shew mouthpiece currently. I have a Benge Limited Edition horn with a .464 bore size. Is it possible that my tone would get fatter and that my upper register would be easier to play if I got a smaller bored trumpet? Or would it be the opposite and need an even bigger bore? Or even a reverse lead-pipe?

Thanks
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Benge Limited Edition Trumpet
Yamaha Bobby Shew Signature
Schilke 10A4A
Schilke 13A4A
CKB 3C

[veery715]

Think you need to recheck your numbers. Sounds like a 'bone.
_________________
veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.

[ericd]

[shofarguy]

Eric,

Welcome to TH! Your question has many possible answers, but also fosters many other questions. Players respond differently to various equipment choices and to various performance venues, etc.

I have had the good fortune to be able to spend some time with the folks at Kanstul, with Flip Oakes of Wild Thing fame and with a few professional and semi-pro players. I've also gotten to know a variety of TH members here in the Los Angeles area. I'll try to summarize what I've learned in the last three or four years from these guys.

The bore of a trumpet has a small effect on sound. If one listens very carefully, one can hear the size of the sound get bigger with an increase in bore. It is different than loudness. Something as small as a change in tuning slide can have this effect. Mostly, bore has a subtle effect on the density of sound and resistance in the blow in the extremes of range and dynamics. A larger bore can reduce or delay the increase in resistance as one goes up the scale.

Generally, the smaller the bore, the more compact the sound. This is also true with the mouthpiece bore. The size of drill used to create the bore will adjust the resistance one feels and what I call the resistance curve. It will change the density of the sound and the expanse of it as well.

Some players will find that a smaller size of mouthpiece throat will help them play in the upper register, while others like me just get beat-up unless the mouthpiece has a much larger bore.

Bell taper is similar in that a tighter bell may help to play the high notes, but trades off tone in the lower register. A fatter tapered bell will allow a richer tone, but some have a harder time playing in the high register for extended lengths of time.

One thing I have come to recognize as a major contributing factor to the choices one makes in equipment is where one plays most often and whether or not that includes a microphone.

You mentioned the word "broad". This would lead me to believe you play in large venues without amplification. Am I right? If so, you should look into horns that produce a broad projection pattern and full tone. You Benge is a recent vintage, isn't it? I am not too familiar with UMI or later Benges, but others here are. The classic 3X+ of Burbank and LA Benge eras are some of the best horns for this type of playing.

It may be that a simple mouthpiece change will do the trick in helping you reach the sound and performance you seek. I would suggest that you try a CG3 mouthpiece, available from Kanstul, to see if a larger back bore and throat will help you. It is easy to play, has a lively tone and is balanced for Benge horns. I'm sure you will notice more sound volume right away.

Good luck!

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[ericd]

[Bill W]

First thing I would try , based upon your stated equipment, is a deeper mouthpiece. Both the Schilke 10A4a and 13A4a are shallow, bright pieces. Try a Yamaha 11B4. An inexpensive piece with a cushion rim, very comfortable, and a slightly deeper cup. I used one for a production of "Les Mis" and got lots of compliments on how nice and dark a sound it produced.
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Bill Wasserman
Shires B-LW
Shires Custom C
1962 Quesnon Flugel
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iMEHat1PXV0 Playing Maynard's "Hey There"

[cheiden]

What I know if the Benges I doubt you'll need to change horns to get the change you're after. It's easier and cheaper to tweak the mouthpiece.

If it's the Yamaha Shew Jazz you're playing I wouldn't think your sound would need fattening up. If it's the Shew Lead then I can see how you might want something more. And who doesn't want an easier high register. If you want to change the discussion to mouthpiece options please clarify which of your mouthpieces are giving you what problems.

FYI the Kanstul CG3 is quite different than you're use to with a bit more bite and a relatively narrow rim. I recently got one that I'm still trying to acclimate to coming from my Bach 3C rim. It's got it's pluses but it's really different.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[oliver king]

The horns and mouthpiece I have work really well for other people so ... I figure they will work for me. Lip Flexibilities ... Walter Smith, Charles Colin or Irons; Arbans p 42 - 46(?), then Arbans 125 - 128; St Jacome p 77 (read the notes on p 84 - I think) have been making a difference in my world. I find myself in all three through the course of the week.
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LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,

[Capt.Kirk]

No a smaller bore is not going to broaden the sound. Does 4 cylinder sound as deep and broad as a big V8? Does 4'11" women have a voice as broad and deep as sayt he average 6'9" NFL Lineman? Does a Saprano Bb trumpet sound as broad as a Tuba? Justo some things to get you thinking in a more common sense manner. Voodoo aside a lot of things about the trumpet are intuitive when it comes to the design elements if you ask the right question! It is all in how you ask yourself the question. Asked one way and things can get rather complicated but put another and suddenly it seems simple.

You sound is your sound and it will always be "your sound" some people natural have more depth, more color,more edge more xxxx etc......This does not mean you cannot manipulate your sound though to push it in one direction or another with a combination of sound concept and gear! It is not ever going to be an either or it will always be a combo of the two.

If you have a music store near by I would take my horn and go try some MP's do not rule anything out based on brand or size just get some trigger time with the brands. Try to deeper B,C,V cups until you find something you like. Normally most people we looking for a broad sound with lots of depth and color will end up on a deep cup with a medium to large throat and medium to large back bore.

For instance I hate Bach rim profiles but like the 3C general set up. So for general purpose playing I use various brands with a cup, throat and back bore similar to a Bach 3C this gives me a deep,colorful and dark sound that I can lighten up if I need to. On the other hand if I put a something that is really deep with a open back bore like an Orachestral type piece the sound get's too broad and too dark for most peoples taste. Does it sound cool yes it does but it does not sound trumpet like I start to sound flumpet or flugel like. In a small room it is over whelming because the sound is too spread and too broad for the size of the room.

So generally the larger the bore, the larger the leadpipe, the larger the MP cup,back bore etc.... the more room you the artist has to move around and the more of everything you have "if" it works for you and you can play it. Their is always an area of marginal or diminishing returns with everything. So even though these are general rules their are exceptions because your throat, mouth and wind pipe and teeth arenot shaped like mine! You and I do not move the same volume of air..You lips do not displace as much volume in the cup more then likely as mine do and so on......This is why one guy can sound insanely dark and full of depth on a 3C but another guy might need a Bach 1.5C to do the same thing.

So you really need to try out a lot pieces...... Some guys are really sensitive to back bore and throat while other's are sensitive to the cup depth and some like you need a rim with out much bite! I have a similar problem because I have thick full lips. My Grandmother told me I had "lover's lips" as a joke but I can not tolerate the bite on most Bach's. So I use Bach numbers to describe what I like because everyone knows them but I seldom buy Bach MP's! I like Storks a lot. I think Stork has a nicer rim profile then Bach with less bite and they offer more MP's with V cups which I think are better for general purpose playing them the C and B cups popular today. Mouthpiece Express has some good deals on Storks normally.

Email Stork and explain your problem with bite and the sound you want and see which piece they recommend. I do not want to color your choice by telling you what I think you would like! I am thinking I would pick a medium deep v cup with a smaller throat but large Bach bore to balance nicely with your .464 bore but that is my bias speaking. I use the throat to adjust resistance from horn to horn.

Oh if you do get a Stork do not get the "Pumped Up" models they are kind of like the Monette Prana series int hat they have huge throats and huge back bores and are not at all for most people that have to actually play any length of time! If you have time to rest once in a while they are killer but they will try most peoples endurance.

I wanted to add that I find the throat size has more effect on me then back bore size when it comes to upper register butnot all people are like that.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Crazy Finn]

Honestly, every lead/jazz/commercial guy (err.. person) is looking for an easy upper register and a fat tone.

The truth?

- An easy upper register is a result of hard practice and good technique. A mouthpiece is no magic bullet. There are guys that wail and sound great that play on huge pieces, medium pieces, and small/shallow pieces. Efficiency is the name of the game, which a mouthpiece can help you with, but not actually give you.

- A fat tone is also a product of the player, not the equipment. The equipment can help, can hinder, but can't create something that isn't there. If your tone isn't somewhat "fat" in the normal register on normal equipment, it's unlikely that a change in mouthpiece or horn will actually do that much. We pretty much sound like us, almost regardless of equipment. Not completely, but for the most part.

That said, proper equipment can make getting these things more efficient. The "proper" equipment for each person is different - there are no universals. Some people work well with shallow mouthpieces, larger mouthpieces, deeper mouthpieces, small bore horns, or large bore horns. The trick is figuring out what works for you. The right equipment can help you be a better player by making the things you do well, easier to do. It can enhance your best qualities and broaden your canvas. However, it's just a tool for you - the player.

Miles didn't become Miles by picking up a Committee. Doc didn't become Doc by playing a Getzen or Destino or Bel Canto or...(well, the list goes on and on). A player may like certain equipment but the reason he is great is because HE is great, regardless of the horn or mouthpiece.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[shofarguy]

[James B. Quick]

The horn you are looking for is the Kanstul Coliseum Model # COL 103.

It was originally developed as a marching horn, but now jazz players have discovered it. It has a large bore (.470, I think), and an open bell flair, which facilitates a big fat tone and nice upper range characteristics.
The horn has loose slots, so it is good for bending notes. The low end can be made to 'bark' nicely.

There is another horn which produces a slightly brighter, but still 'fat' tone and has an 'easy' upper register. The horn is exceptional in that it has tight slotting characteristics above high 'C'. That horn is the Zeus 'Olympus'. The designer of the horn is a bit controversial, but the horn stands on its own merits.

Of course, there are other horns that may meet the desired requirements of a 'fat' tone and 'easy' upper register, but in my opinion these fit the description the best. The 'Wild Thing' nearly meets the requirements, and it has many slightly different merits of its own, but I didn't include it because it has a little tighter' blow' than the other two horns. JBQD

[shofarguy]

[Capt.Kirk]

I have been plugin the COL 103 for about 2 years......They are a steal price wise.....When you consider you can get them in copper bell or bronze if you order them that way not a steal price wise compared to buying off the rack but still a bargin!

What I love is how I get booed for recommending that but when sold under a different name with a bronze or copper bell for a lot more then a yellow brass silver stock one it get's rave reviews!LOL

If you see a .470 bore trumpet made in the USA with a Bronze or Copper bell rest assured it is a Kanstul. Kanstul will sub any part you want as well.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[shofarguy]

[EdMann]

To the OP's orig question, there's is little correlation between bore size and fat sounds. Fat is subjective, unless it's your ankles, but seriously, Brian here often points out the differing variables which can affect sound and bore is down the list. Bell design is far more indicative, as is leadpipe/mpc setup.

Last night I played a solo on my step bore 8310Z and a Curry 60M mpc setup, my usual big band deal and the leader later said, "Ed on flugelhorn." This is a .445 bore at certain points in the horn and in the hands of the player, you make it what you want. Meanwhile, my .468 Holton is by far my brightest sounding horn. Fat? Maybe, but not to my ear.

ed

[Crazy Finn]

[Craig Swartz]

I think your tone will get "fatter"when your ears do. As long as you're making the sound you think you should be, there aren't really a lot of equipment changes you'll likely make that will make a drastic difference, IMO. I'm betting if you heard me or anyone else play for a while, we could change horns, mouthpieces, bore sizes, backbores, etc., and you'd still recognize the performer. How many different horns has Doc played since 1965? Or mouthpieces? I'm not stupid enough to put myself in his category, but in all seriousness, Doc sounds like Doc on anything he plays. Same with about any decent player from small jazz combos to symphony orchestra players. The equipment can have subtle effects, but often the most noticeable one is on the pocketbook. Good players sound good because they sound like the person they want to sound like. Take it or leave it- if you leave it there are a lot of custom horn, mouthpiece, lead pipe and other specialized tweak makers that will have to get a second job. Good luck.

[razeontherock]

There a lot of truth to all that, but easy upper register can be greatly facilitated by equipment. My (.470 bore) Callet Jazz, modified by Harrelson And there's a Muse going cheap somewhere, that the bracing is very similar and *might* do well. Won't have that Jazz bell slotting up to DHC though.

As for fat tone, the Jazz is supremely adaptable to mpc, but I find the mpc will help more than any horn in that dep't., and be the exact opposite of what will facilitate upper register.

I do love .470 bore horns, also my .464 bore Superchops. (Still have 2 of those) But they'll penetrate, moreso than "fat."

The Wild Thing really does give fat sound, and blows more open than any other trumpet I've ever played. I'd really like to try the shepherd's crook cornet ...

[Craig Swartz]

OK, I agree with that. For about 30 years now, I've split lead in a big band made up of college profs and other music teachers where I crash in the summer. For about the first 27 years, I just used the same Schilke 19 that I use for the orchestra. I liked the sound, but it didn't blend well with the smaller, tighter stuff the other guys were using so the last couple of summers I pulled out the old Jet Tone I used back in the 70s with the rock bands. My horn's pretty big (B3L) but it's always cooked well with that mouthpiece. I guess it's all semantics, though, because I never really have called the altissimo stuff "fat", although, like you (I think), I don't like the piercing tone quality much. Sounds too angry to me, like a guy is playing right off his front teeth. Sadly, we ran out of trumpet players this summer past and our long-lived band did not meet. It's about the only time I get to play jazz anymore. Crap.