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NavyJazz
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Location: Gadsden, AL
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 Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: Bach Tuning Crooks... |
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Any thoughts on Bach Tuning Slides? Vendors are making rounded and square variations. I have an Bach 72G that I play every now and again and I'm curious. A friend of mine in New Orleans swears by these new advances...http://www.mkdrawing.com/bach.html
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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Sure, the curve of the crook can drastically change the way a horn plays. Ever since Selmer purchased Bach in the early 1960s, the Strad has had a Selmer type of crook the "square" style we're all used to. However, prior to this, the main tuning slide crook had more curve to it and less angle. If you got back even futher, the crook's centers were less than they are now, measuring about 62mm. These are the NY Bachs. There are some manufacturers today that still build horns with this center for the main tuning slide.
Nine years ago I developed my own slide based on my research of the early Bach trumpet. You can see below how my crook (#2) compares to both the standard Bach crook (#1) and the single radius round crook (#3).
And here's a not-so-good image of my slide compared to a 1937 slide:
Anyway, these types of slides are popular nowadays and many people feel they improve the overall response and sound of the Bach. I've had some people swear that there is a major difference in resistance, but I personally feel there is really no measurable difference. However, what I do find is I prefer the sound and the evenness it gives to a Strad.
(I have more info on my website: www.electrotheremin.com/myslide.html if you'd like to read more)
M/K is a great company and even though you could say they're my "competition," and probably unkown to them, I've referred many people there who are looking for something that I don't offer.
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oliver king
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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This is my Kanstul 1500 with the stock tuning crook.
same horn with a rounded crook.
I've been playing this horn in this configuration daily over the last few weeks. I find it is not as stuffy and my sound has a more dense core. It is more resonant I believe and projects like mad. Intonation has become 'slippery' though.
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| oliver king wrote: | | I find it is not as stuffy and my sound has a more dense core. It is more resonant I believe and projects like mad. Intonation has become 'slippery' though. |
I think that is common. I used a single radius crook for several years when they first came out, and though I liked some of what it did, pitch and security was always a slippery road, or at least for me and what I was doing (symphony work). I like the way your horn is braced, or should I say unbraced, at the tuning slide area, Oliver.
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Last edited by DavesTrumpet on Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Capt.Kirk
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to send him to your sight Dave but you chimed in. I love your sight by the way a lot of good information!
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DavesTrumpet
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Blue Trane
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I need to replace the tuning slide on my Bach 43 lightweight because a small piece rotted off the end of the slide. Is there a difference between light weight and regular weight slides? Should I try the shape that's midway between the single radius and the square one that's there presently? |
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue Trane wrote: | | I need to replace the tuning slide on my Bach 43 lightweight because a small piece rotted off the end of the slide. Is there a difference between light weight and regular weight slides? Should I try the shape that's midway between the single radius and the square one that's there presently? |
Sure. If your horn is light weight, the tubing is thinner and thus has a different outside diameter.
I think the in-between bend is ideal! I think you'll find the sharper the bend in a slide, the more metallic the tone.
I believe M/K has slides available for the light weight Bach. The slides I offer are for normal weight only.
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oliver king
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: | | oliver king wrote: | | I find it is not as stuffy and my sound has a more dense core. It is more resonant I believe and projects like mad. Intonation has become 'slippery' though. |
I think that is common. I used a single radius crook for several years when they first came out, and though I liked some of what it did, pitch and security was always a slippery road, or at least for me and what I was doing (symphony work). I like the way your horn is braced, or should I say unbraced, at the tuning slide area, Oliver. |
Thanks ... its a pretty fun pipe. The difference between the two slides is pretty significant, I think. I understand the slippery road of intonation; it's easy to be expressive it'll bend like a rubberband. I'm not 'loving' the mental side of playing this horn ... yet. I really have to think pitch center.
Kanstul makes a (re)movable brace that stiffens things up some.
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forrest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: |
I believe M/K has slides available for the light weight Bach. The slides I offer are for normal weight only. |
I bought a SR slide for my 72* from M/K. It's a great piece and really opened the sound in the middle/upper register for me. |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| oliver king wrote: | | DavesTrumpet wrote: | | oliver king wrote: | | I find it is not as stuffy and my sound has a more dense core. It is more resonant I believe and projects like mad. Intonation has become 'slippery' though. |
I think that is common. I used a single radius crook for several years when they first came out, and though I liked some of what it did, pitch and security was always a slippery road, or at least for me and what I was doing (symphony work). I like the way your horn is braced, or should I say unbraced, at the tuning slide area, Oliver. |
Thanks ... its a pretty fun pipe. The difference between the two slides is pretty significant, I think. I understand the slippery road of intonation; it's easy to be expressive it'll bend like a rubberband. I'm not 'loving' the mental side of playing this horn ... yet. I really have to think pitch center.
Kanstul makes a (re)movable brace that stiffens things up some. |
The better you get at matching pitch, the more you will love the freedom the rounded slide gives you. Work on humming and lip buzzing to match pitch. Magically, after awhile, the horn won't feel "slippery" or "squirrelly", it will feel like a partner and not a tutor.
For me, it's similar to graduating from school or going into business for ones self. For a few weeks there is a feeling of insecurity. Then, self-authority or freedom becomes an irreplaceable characteristic and asset.
Brian
Brian
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65strad
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Dave curious if your slide that is modeled after the Bach 1937 slide is narrower as well as more rounded than a current vintage Strad.
I ask because mine is similar looking but the horn is a narrower wrap (slides are closer) but standard weight.
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Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602 |
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NavyJazz
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the information. My buddy Barney Floyd loves the new innovations. I'd love to experiment with a few different styles. Does anyone offer trials? Again, I own a Bach 72G.
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DavesTrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| 65strad wrote: | Dave curious if your slide that is modeled after the Bach 1937 slide is narrower as well as more rounded than a current vintage Strad.
I ask because mine is similar looking but the horn is a narrower wrap (slides are closer) but standard weight. |
Hi Tom,
The curve of my slide was inspired by the early Bach, but uses the modern "centers" so it can fit into any standard Bach Strad. I've built a few Bach "retro-versions" with 62mm center crooks, and you're right, the narrow wrap brings the leadpipe down lower on a modern valve section. I think the wrap on your horn is like a Bronx Bach? So it's a little higher than the NY Bach.
I think it's really cool they built your horn the way they did. Several of my horns look just like yours! I'm currently reworking my C trumpet into a 1920s version using a shorter wrap.
Here's a Bb I built a while back with the short wrap:
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65strad
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| DavesTrumpet wrote: | | 65strad wrote: | Dave curious if your slide that is modeled after the Bach 1937 slide is narrower as well as more rounded than a current vintage Strad.
I ask because mine is similar looking but the horn is a narrower wrap (slides are closer) but standard weight. |
Hi Tom,
The curve of my slide was inspired by the early Bach, but uses the modern "centers" so it can fit into any standard Bach Strad. I've built a few Bach "retro-versions" with 62mm center crooks, and you're right, the narrow wrap brings the leadpipe down lower on a modern valve section. I think the wrap on your horn is like a Bronx Bach? So it's a little higher than the NY Bach.
I think it's really cool they built your horn the way they did. Several of my horns look just like yours! I'm currently reworking my C trumpet into a 1920s version using a shorter wrap.
Here's a Bb I built a while back with the short wrap:
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I see what you mean Dave. They look very similar. Yours has the non reverse 1st slide with the vintage style hook connection to the 1st tuning slide, and the vintage style valve caps, nice touch. I'll ask Tedd about the slide spec's, then I'm sure that you will know what era (Bronx, etc.) it is from.
I can't tell by the pic, does yours have a standard or French bead? I'm not sure if a French bead was used on Bronx era horns or not, I ran it by Tedd with a 43 lt weight G bell and he did it. I really like the way the new Artisan's play and look, but I think I prefer this more classic design's style, plays real nice too. I'm really happy that they built it this way too. They went way beyond my expectations .
With many talking about custom horn builders and "Bach clones", I would think that you should be the first call for anyone that wants the real deal configuration. Do you or have you considered going in to the horn building business on a larger but managable scale? Everyone knows that you do really first rate work that is faithful to the old man's designs. Just a thought.
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Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602 |
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DavesTrumpet
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Location: Shreveport, LA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| 65strad wrote: |
I see what you mean Dave. They look very similar. Yours has the non reverse 1st slide with the vintage style hook connection to the 1st tuning slide, and the vintage style valve caps, nice touch. I'll ask Tedd about the slide spec's, then I'm sure that you will know what era (Bronx, etc.) it is from.
I can't tell by the pic, does yours have a standard or French bead? I'm not sure if a French bead was used on Bronx era horns or not, I ran it by Tedd with a 43 lt weight G bell and he did it. I really like the way the new Artisan's play and look, but I think I prefer this more classic design's style, plays real nice too. I'm really happy that they built it this way too. They went way beyond my expectations .
With many talking about custom horn builders and "Bach clones", I would think that you should be the first call for anyone that wants the real deal configuration. Do you or have you considered going in to the horn building business on a larger but managable scale? Everyone knows that you do really first rate work that is faithful to the old man's designs. Just a thought. |
Hi Tom,
The bell is a standard beaded Bach bell. I'd love to have one with a Fr. bead though. Back in 2003, at the ITG convention, Tedd had a prototype bell with him with the French bead. I can't prove why, but I just think those bells are superior. And they look good too!
The caps on this horn are some that I cut on my lathe. I'd love to have someone with better skills manufacture the early style caps. I'd certainly be a customer and I'm sure there'd be others as well interested in this style of top valve cap. (Hint, hint- anyone out there, I have a nice vintage sample to copy, if you can make!).
I've built maybe twelve or so horns over the years, a few of them by taking Bach cornets and turning them into vintage style trumpets!  That's still pretty small-scale, but I like it that way for now. Maybe when I retire from my current job in ten years, I can ramp up into something more productive. I've always said if I ever win the lottery, I'm going to build early style Bachs!
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The Royal Lancer
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Just want to chime in to say that I just got my new braced, semi-round tuning slide for my Bach 37 from M/K Drawing. It has made a tremendous difference in the playability of that instrument and Mike, the owner of M/K, is a great guy to work with. He sent me sample slides to try out so that I could make an intelligent decision regarding what I wanted to get rather than just buying a pig in a poke.
I highly recommend, if you have a Bach trumpet, trying one of Mike's replacement slides.
Jack 
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