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Triggers vs. Saddle/Ring


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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:07 am    Post subject: Triggers vs. Saddle/Ring Reply with quote

Which setup is considered most efficient - or is it simply a matter of individual preference?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Triggers vs. Saddle/Ring Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
Which setup is considered most efficient - or is it simply a matter of individual preference?


I have heard it said that triggers can introduce extra tension into one's grip. I like the high position of the trigger on my flugelhorn because I can isolate my grip from the effort needed to pull the trigger.

Rings and saddles require a hand extension. For me, I can keep a fairly loose grip while moving either 1st or 3rd or both at once.

Like so many things, it comes down to preference. That is, as long as what we prefer is not hindering our ability to play.

Brian
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When considering cornets, I like rings and saddles best, but I'm also happy with a 1st valve trigger and 3rd valve ring combo. I don't like triggers on both valves, though - they are awkward to me. As said before, though, it's mainly a personal preference issue.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's definitely personal opinion.

The Bach 184L I've played in my group was modified to have a saddle on the 1st slide rather than a trigger. I like it a lot better, since I had never had a trigger. I've also got small hands, so as a rule I don't care for triggers - it makes the horn feel bigger to hold. I used the other cornet in the group once - with the trigger - and it was weird. The saddle's much better - for me.

I just procured a Getzen Capri cornet in the past few days. It's got a trigger. It seemed smaller to hold than the Bach. I'm going to give it a shot. We'll have to see how I like that.

Despite my small hands, I don't play with a death grip, so extending both 1st and 3rd slides with rings/saddle has never been a problem for me.

As far a flugels, unless you've got a flugel with the horizontal slides, rings and saddles aren't really an option. Triggers are pretty much the only way to go. I'm sure placement, comfort, and possibly hand size are key in making them work well.
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trumpetmike
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't play a trumpet with triggers
I can't play a cornet without

Have always had triggers on my cornets (well, for the past 20 years) and find them VERY odd without, but really can't get on with triggers on a trumpet. I guess they help me make sure I am playing in the style appropriate to the instrument.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was hoping there might be some research out there that suggests (proves?) one system is more efficient than the other.

I suppose I'm like a lot of amateur players in that I've never been able to operate the ring on my trumpet's third slide smoothly enough to avoid affecting the sound. I keep the slides well oiled and they move easily so the problem must be my lack of coordination or, perhaps, my failure to get in the habit early on of always using intonation aids.

My reason for asking is that I'm in the process of buying a new Eclipse Bb cornet. It's my first new horn since the Eisenhower Administration and I want to get it right.

I have a trigger on the lst valve of the cornet I'm using now. It's the ring on the 3rd slide that I struggle with. So I'm thinking maybe triggers fore and aft may be the way for me to go.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had rings and saddles on my Stomvi Master Ti cornet and never thought too much about them. When it came time to get my new Smith Watkins 'Soloist" cornet I had a choice and I decided to give the double triggers a try. Really glad I did. I would NEVER go back to rings and saddles on a cornet. NEVER I was worried about the idea of them being uncomfortable at first but I can tell you they are ReALLY comfortable now and work great. Don't be afraid to make the switch. You will never go back !!.[/u][/i]
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flattergrub wrote:
I had rings and saddles on my Stomvi Master Ti cornet and never thought too much about them. When it came time to get my new Smith Watkins 'Soloist" cornet I had a choice and I decided to give the double triggers a try. Really glad I did. I would NEVER go back to rings and saddles on a cornet. NEVER I was worried about the idea of them being uncomfortable at first but I can tell you they are ReALLY comfortable now and work great. Don't be afraid to make the switch. You will never go back !!.[/u][/i]

Well, I'm glad you like them and they work for you. Don't assume that's universal, however.

I've played horns with double triggers as well. Maybe the Olds Mendez trigger ring might work, but the double trigger horns I've tried didn't feel good AT ALL. Not a bit. My hand felt stretched and sore and really started to hurt after I played on it for a a few days. No way.

If done correctly, I grant that it might work. One must take into account the size of the player's hands, however.
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Indofunk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got a 1929 Conn 56B with an underslung 3rd valve trigger ring. Bizarre, I know. My conclusion (I have a number of horns with triggers and a number with standard rings) is that triggers are fun and easy to use, but rings are more consistent and precise.

To me, anyways.
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's about comfort, I kind of fancy a 1st slide trigger, but really dislike 3rd slide triggers; to each his own. Fair enough, with most flügelhorns 3rd slide triggers are hard to avoid.

If it's about the instrument's sound and response, I far prefer saddles and rings.
Strongly put, I'm convinced that triggers can kill a great instrument.
I've had several triggered instruments modified to saddles & rings and without exception they all played noticeably better after getting rid of the triggers (quicker response at low volumes, more open sound at high volumes, overall less rigid).

Okay, let the flame war start.
MvW.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it mainly comes down to what you're used to. When I switched from an Olds recording cornet to a Bach years ago, I missed the 3rd valve trigger for a while. Now I'm used to mainly using a ring, and the trigger seems strange. I think if I could get either setup consistently on every horn, I wouldn't care at all.

Currently, the main thing I'm having trouble getting used to is the trigger on the Kanstul flugel. There's nothing wrong with it, it functions fine, I'm just not completely adjusted to it yet.
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cinci-sop
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Xeno cornet has triggers on both first and third. My Schilke sop has a ring and a saddle. I like the saddle on the first valve slide and I like the trigger on the 3rd valve slide. Wish I could get them both that way but not worth the time and trouble to get them changed.
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qcm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been comfortable with triggers. I just don't feel like I have a secure enough grip on a horn if there's a first and third valve trigger.

The only trigger I kind of liked, was the Olds style third valve trigger.

I much prefer rings and saddles.

-Dave
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qcm wrote:
I've never been comfortable with triggers. I just don't feel like I have a secure enough grip on a horn if there's a first and third valve trigger.

The only trigger I kind of liked, was the Olds style third valve trigger.

I much prefer rings and saddles.

-Dave


Dave,

You mean like the old days on a Merry-go-round??? I remember, too. Almost got that ring...

Don't mind me, I just horsing around.

Brino
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
If it's about comfort, I kind of fancy a 1st slide trigger, but really dislike 3rd slide triggers; to each his own. Fair enough, with most flügelhorns 3rd slide triggers are hard to avoid.

If it's about the instrument's sound and response, I far prefer saddles and rings.
Strongly put, I'm convinced that triggers can kill a great instrument.
I've had several triggered instruments modified to saddles & rings and without exception they all played noticeably better after getting rid of the triggers (quicker response at low volumes, more open sound at high volumes, overall less rigid).

Okay, let the flame war start.
MvW.


If a horn is already great, and has triggers ... will it become even better without them?
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sparxIV
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:29 pm    Post subject: cornets Reply with quote

etc-etc,

Yes!!

sparx
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going with triggers fore and aft. There must be some reason Smith-Watkins and Yamaha Maestro cornets have them. More importantly, it seems only logical to me that it would be easier to finely control something if you're squeezing toward the valve block rather than pulling one in one direction and pushing in the other.

I may be wrong and, if that's the case, it'll be the first time! Hah!
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Trigger versus saddles/rings Reply with quote

Hello all,
I had a third trigger on my Yamaha Eb cornet and a third trigger installed on my Benge flugel. They are/were comfortable to use. The first trigger on my old Getzen Severinsen, seemed just too cumbersome. I liked the first ring on my Schilke cornet so well, I had one installed on my B2L. They are really comfortable to use, more so than the saddle, imho... And they even look cool
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: cornets Reply with quote

sparxIV wrote:
etc-etc,

Yes!!

sparx

Yes!!

Anyway, I guess BBB tradition is the main reason a lot of top cornets have 2 triggers, but surely someone else knows more about that than I do (Sparx, Mike?).
I'm not trying to convince Jim to order his instrument without triggers, I know personal comfort is very important indeed, but for me playing characteristics are more important than comfort. Probably many people would not notice a difference, but I do.

MvW.
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plp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you whom remove triggers, do you replace them with a hook or ring, or just leave them off altogether?

My Besson 10-10 third slide trigger is my favorite for ease of use, the same horn's 1st trigger, not so much. On my Conns, I use my left thumb to operate the trigger but on the Besson it is awkward. I can use my right thumb for it, but it affects the way I hold the horn. I have to use the pinky ring to support the trumpet, which I was taught not to do.

With both the Conns and the Besson, the 1st slide adjustment is necessary.
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