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Maarten van Weverwijk
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Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| plp wrote: | | For those of you whom remove triggers, do you replace them with a hook or ring... |
Yes.
Truth be told, I'd like to have it done to my Getzen 3850, but it might mess up the lacquer so I may prefer to leave it the way it is (or re-lacquer afterwards).
I would've ordered it with saddle/ring, but since it was a special stock deal from Washington M.C. there was no room for custom wishes.
MvW. |
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Bob Stevenson
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 1139
Location: Essex, England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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It depends on what sort of playing you do. Triggers are essential for modern brass band playing here in the uk. Instant adjustment is vital and adjudicators are quick to hear the slightest blemish,....the blue pencil always hovers!
I find it interesting that players from other 'genres' seem to find triggers awkward to hold and use. For British players, especially the upper sections, the grip on the instrument is of neccessity very light with little or no pressure, so the cornet is held optimally for easy and isntant trigger use without moving the mass of the instrument. If the cornet moves when you flex both triggers together then you are doing it wrong!....probably holding too tight. |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
Posts: 8333
Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | | Triggers are essential for modern brass band playing here in the uk. Instant adjustment is vital and adjudicators are quick to hear the slightest blemish,....the blue pencil always hovers! |
How, exactly, are triggers more precise than rings or slides?
Players are what give horns precise intonation (all things considered) not the devices in the horn, in my opinion. If a player has excellent pitch and good and smooth ways to adjust it slightly, then I fail to see how one is more superior than the other.
Feel free to disagree.
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Bob Stevenson
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Posts: 1139
Location: Essex, England
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: |
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Well obviously it's much faster as there is a spring supplying the returning force.......so the fingers only need to tighten slightly and release. Saddle rings require both a 'push and pull' to complete the action. I can't think of a single Britsh cornet player using saddle rings.........
And you are right about the player needing all his skills,......in band playing they are always being tested tho'...anything that saves a microsecond is a help! |
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trumpetmike
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Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Posts: 11315
Location: Ash (an even smaller place ), UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | | Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | Strongly put, I'm convinced that triggers can kill a great instrument.
I've had several triggered instruments modified to saddles & rings and without exception they all played noticeably better after getting rid of the triggers (quicker response at low volumes, more open sound at high volumes, overall less rigid).
Okay, let the flame war start. 
MvW. |
If a horn is already great, and has triggers ... will it become even better without them? |
Not for me.
Maarten - no flame wars (sorry ) but I will happily engage in debate over personal opinion.
For me, having played identical instruments with triggers and rings (oh the joy of spending time at Eclipse), I would ALWAYS choose the trigger option. The instruments played as identically as any two instruments do, but the feel of the trigger'd cornet was more what I look for in a cornet - in other words, it felt like a cornet, not a trumpet in a cornet shape, but my guess would be that this situation was purely down to me psychologically expecting a cornet to have triggers due to my background.
My Band history is not quite as good as it should be, but I think that the Sovereign cornet was the first to put triggers on the instrument - it was very popular (basically, everyone had one) so newer manufacturers copied that design.
Interestingly, some of the more recent designs have done away with the first valve trigger. The trigger is in the same place, but now operates the tuning slide.
Like many things, cornet triggers are just something you get used to and (as I said earlier) it just doesn't feel like a proper cornet without them, to me. |
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Nonsense Eliminator
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Joined: 03 Feb 2003
Posts: 5212
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Maarten van Weverwijk wrote: | Strongly put, I'm convinced that triggers can kill a great instrument.
I've had several triggered instruments modified to saddles & rings and without exception they all played noticeably better after getting rid of the triggers (quicker response at low volumes, more open sound at high volumes, overall less rigid). |
No argument here.
Ted (sparxIV) and I play in a brass band together. The most popular instrument in the cornet section is (OH THE HUMANITY) a Bach 184, with a saddle or ring instead of the first valve trigger. I had mine removed because they bug me, but it played better without it as well. It is a pretty strong spring; having that much tension on the instrument can't help anything. Not only was my repairman positively eager to remove my first slide trigger, he has also replaced the water key springs on several of my instruments with softer ones for the same reason.
Setting that aside, for somebody with no preference I would suggest that there are is another advantage to rings or saddles. Because there's no mechanism there, it's easier to remove the slide to get water out, and there's much less chance of something getting out of adjustment and not working properly.
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Richard Sandals
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
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Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I hate the lever/trigger arrangements. Having stated that, however, and in regard to Maarten's and Richard's posts, just about every rotor trumpet has a (very necessary IMO) third valve slide "trigger" with an extremely strong spring/long adjustment rod and no one seems to complain about these much. (I wish they also had a fast, reliable 1st valve slide adjustment as well.) I've also owned a couple of Cs with pitchfinders installed (essentially the same thing as a normal trigger) and they were excellent players as well.
Again, the Bach 184 cornet I own came with both trigger mechanisms, is extremely difficult for me to hold and manipulate and I'd rather it would have come with the saddle/ring instead. The deal maker for me was that it was almost new and I got it for $500, so I make do... My flugel also has a 3rd valve slide lever, with vertical/90 degree slides like my rotor tpt, I don't know how else this could've been handled.) |
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Maarten van Weverwijk
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| Craig Swartz wrote: |
1)-...just about every rotor trumpet has a (very necessary IMO) third valve slide "trigger" with an extremely strong spring/long adjustment rod and no one seems to complain about these much...
2)-...I wish they also had a fast, reliable 1st valve slide adjustment as well... |
1)-Like with flügelhorns, triggers on rotary tpts are difficult to avoid, but there are several possible systems. For instance, a rotary trigger with a long and strong spring inside of a thin tube (old Monke/Ganter/Scherzer type) affects the response much more than a trigger with a small external spring.
But yes, you've definitely made a point. If there would be a way of making simple slide systems without springs and levers I'd be very interested in installing them on my rotary tpts. I just don't think they can be made to work comfortably.
2)-Although not very common, rotaries can be custom ordered with separate 1st & 3rd slide triggers (I've seen a Scherzer, Kürner and Lechner like that), both to be operated with your left hand thumb (one lever next to the other).
However, I far prefer the newer double working triggers; one lever with one spring moves both the 1st and 3rd slide at the same time. This system works extremely fast and accurate, but it means you'd have to have the 1st and 3rd rotary casing vented too (no big deal).
Sorry Jim  , let's go back to cornets.
MvW. |
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jhatpro
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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And now onto boat shoes. Socks or no socks?
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.ā€¯ Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Only a landlubber would ever be caught wearing socks with boat shoes.
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jhatpro
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Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I knew a guy who said that to a chief petty officer and wound up scraping bulkheads for a week.
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Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.ā€¯ Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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Craig Swartz
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Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7769
Location: Des Moines, IA area
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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As per the trigger on my (well, the orchestra owns them) Yamaha rotary C, I've been toying with turning it into a pitchfinder, since ours were prototypes and we can tune them at the lead pipe like a flugel if we want. Then I wouldn't fret the high 12 combinations so much. It would be so simple even a cave man could do it. Easy to make stock again, too. WTH? Since we're off cornets now and even talkin' deck shoes...  |
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razeontherock
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | I'm going with triggers fore and aft. |
Good choice! I learned on an Olds Recording cornet, and have really missed that 3rd valve trigger ever since. Wanted one on the first valve too ... |
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ChopsGone
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| Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Same here - a 1951 Recording, to be precise. But there's hope yet for new horns, as I showed here a few weeks ago with some beautiful work by John Duda. See if you Olds types recognize anything:
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GordonH
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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The reason for spring trigger on the third valve is that its difficult to make a workable ring on a cornet with a loop that goes beyond the third valve. If you have a cornet like the Schilke/Yamaha 2330 that does not have that loop then a ring is workable.
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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Gordon,
Could you please explain in more detail? |
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Dr Worm
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| etc-etc wrote: | Gordon,
Could you please explain in more detail? |
Do you see how the Eclipse Cornet has a ring trigger that's elevated because of the tuning slide reciever?
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Dave's custom semi round tuning slide
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Flattergrub
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etc-etc
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Reviving the 2-year old thread, I have finally had a chance to try the Getzen 3850 cornet - with triggers.
The third valve trigger is placed in the most annoying fashion. With the vulcan grip, fingers wrapped below the valves will be hitting the bottom side of the lever, the linkage, and the moving bottom leg. That happens because:
1. The bottom part of the lever curves towards the valves (what for?).
2. The moving third slide legs are too long, while its stationary legs are too short.
If you place the fingers above, you don't get enough room to operate the third valve slide and it stays always extended. Whatever you do, the trigger is in the way.
The rubber socks on the levers and black linkages look too cheap for a custom-top-of-the-line instrument.
If anything is great on that horn, it is the valves. Springs are a tad too light and valves might bounce back at the top of stroke.
Intonation ... somewhat odd. 123-combinations and 13-combinations seemed to have not enough trigger space (extension length) available. Perhaps I am used to Yamaha and Kanstul scales, and - for me - the Getzen scale is not in tune. It could be also that the horn is inconvenient to hold, and that affects the rest of playing.
The horn sounded less lively when tuned to A=440. A little sharper tuning and it would regain the zing.
Response - fine at low volumes but the horn gets stuffy if you play ff.
Silver finish - absolutely flawless and mirror-like. |
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lyndon153
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Joined: 19 Apr 2007
Posts: 129
Location: Rochester, NY, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: triggers vs rings & saddles |
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My Getzen 850S has 1st & 3rd valve slide triggers. It took me a long time to get used to it.
In the begining I would have prefered a 1st valve slide trigger and 3rd valve slide ring.
For one thing, holding the horn by the valve block I sometimes accidently move the trigger...
However, I've gotten used to it, and really like the responsiveness and consistency of the trigger. On my Bach model 37 trumpet, I have to prep the ring and saddle, as they aren't often used.
Sorry to hear about the guy having trouble with his 3850s . I find that my 850s stays in tune. I do find that each horn needs the right MP.
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1995 Getzen Eterna 850S Bb cornet, .464" bore, MP:GR66#6, Wicks#4
1975 Bach Strad Model 37 ML Bb Trumpet, MP:GR66m
20?? Berkley Music C/Bb Pocket Trumpet, MP:Bach3c
1918 Henri Gautier "Virtuso" Bb cornet, MP:Bach 3c
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