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Harrelson vs Monette


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laurent
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:11 am    Post subject: Harrelson vs Monette Reply with quote

Hi guys!

We all know that both Harrelson and Monette are producing heavy horns whose conception is widely based on acoustics, thus I'm wondering wether there are any similarities in sound, playability, etc, between their respective instruments...

Has anyone played horns from both of these makers? How do they compare?
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mcahynuacrkd
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They look more alike than they sound alike. In my opinion, Monette trumpets sound better.
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swingshift
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpets sound like the player...if you have a crappy sound on a student horn, you will have a more expensive crappy sound on a custom horn...

playability and quality are the real issues...monettes reputation speaks for itself...great horns...super quality....great reputation...

I have a harrelson summit...again...great horn, super quality...intonation is spot on, sound is great (what i can get out of it) it is really responsive and $6grand less in price...

now...its up to you....i have played both...monette make very very fine instruments...
now so does jason harrelson...
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Inside John Haynie's Studio, A Master Teacher's Lessons on Trumpet and Life"

He talks about gear (very briefly, he definitely doesn't come across as a gearhead or safari participant at all).

In a section discussing cornets and trumpets, differences, etc., he comments on players and their sound:

"Every fine player develops his own trademark and sounds pretty much the same no matter what instrument, mouthpiece, or music he performs."

If you think about it, when you hear an audio clip of a famous player, you can usually pick out who it is if you are familiar with their other work just by their play style. Many of them change horns and mouthpieces over the years, yet we still know who they are.
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swingshift
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good examples are Doc and maynard...both ALWAYS sounded like themselves and ALWAYS switched horns and mouthpieces....
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the concept cited in the above posts, but...

The differences between horns are in the way they allow or bring out the player's inner trumpet voice. This is why a good player can sound like him/her self on virtually any horn, but they choose very carefully the horns they live with and use to build their reputations and wealth.

I have been having fun making my Benge sound it's best (better than before) by finding slides that enhance its/my sound. I like the results a lot, but I cannot live in the low register as easily or effectively as with my other trumpet. The Benge now has really good response, but not quite to the extent of the other. The Benge still beats up my chops after a fairly short time (especially since I haven't really played it for over a year now), so I get tired and tense and my sound goes all to heck. The other horn doesn't do that to me.

So, while any horn can sound like I want it to some of the time and across some of my capabilities, it takes a great horn to unlock ALL of my sound and allow me to explore the full extent of what I am capable of doing.

If we are willing to talk about things like confidence, tension, expression and personality when we discuss sound, then I disagree that a person can sound like themselves on any trumpet.

These comments apply to mouthpieces, too, but with other variations.

Brian
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Albuquerque Duke
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So.....I will sound the same whether I play:

1. 1920's peashooter with a Schilke 6A4a mpc

or

2. .470 bore Wild Thing with a Schilke 24 mpc

I doubt it.
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mcahynuacrkd
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
I agree with the concept cited in the above posts, but...

The differences between horns are in the way they allow or bring out the player's inner trumpet voice. This is why a good player can sound like him/her self on virtually any horn, but they choose very carefully the horns they live with and use to build their reputations and wealth.

I have been having fun making my Benge sound it's best (better than before) by finding slides that enhance its/my sound. I like the results a lot, but I cannot live in the low register as easily or effectively as with my other trumpet. The Benge now has really good response, but not quite to the extent of the other. The Benge still beats up my chops after a fairly short time (especially since I haven't really played it for over a year now), so I get tired and tense and my sound goes all to heck. The other horn doesn't do that to me.

So, while any horn can sound like I want it to some of the time and across some of my capabilities, it takes a great horn to unlock ALL of my sound and allow me to explore the full extent of what I am capable of doing.

If we are willing to talk about things like confidence, tension, expression and personality when we discuss sound, then I disagree that a person can sound like themselves on any trumpet.

These comments apply to mouthpieces, too, but with other variations.

Brian


Well said Brian. That is why a superb trumpet like a Flip Oakes Wild Thing, or a Calicchio is worth every penny.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albuquerque Duke wrote:
So.....I will sound the same whether I play:

1. 1920's peashooter with a Schilke 6A4a mpc

or

2. .470 bore Wild Thing with a Schilke 24 mpc

I doubt it.

No, not exactly. It's not about EXACTLY.

You're exaggerating it. You're choosing equipment that is very extreme as an example. It's like comparing a piccolo trumpet to a flugel, almost. A silly example and missing the point.

Besides, it's unlikely that you'll be successful as a player with both (or either) of those setups.

No one is saying equipment has NO effect on sound, but similar equipment has less effect than you'd imagine.

Those 1920's Peashooters have their own sound, that is very much a product of it's own time. Not all horns from that era sound like that - but all horns with that design do. It's part of the design and sound concept of the era. Pick any horn from that era, and any mouthpiece, and you'll sound similar on any horn of that type. You'll sound like a 1920's era recording of YOU.

It's the same with modern horns. All the modern style Bach-like horns have a similar sound concept. Not the same - similar.

If I play on a Bach (any), Yamaha (any), UMI whatever, Getzen, Kanstul, etc - I won't sound EXACTLY the same, but I'll sound somewhat similar. My essential sound will be the same, but be shaded differently. Some horns will make me brighter, some darker, some more resonant, some less - but you'll probably still be able to pick ME out of a blind survey regardless of what horn I'm playing. I still sound like a version of me.

So a horn can shade a player's sound more darker, but if that player has a naturally very bright sound, it won't make it much darker - unless he chooses extreme equipment.

So - sometimes someone asks, "I have a really bright sound, how do I make it darker?" If that player is playing a very light, very bright horn with a very shallow mouthpiece, well, the answer is self evident. However, if that player is playing on a middle of the road Bach 37 with a 3C, well, that player is going to have difficulty changing his sound purely through equipment. He's going to have to get a big and deep mouthpiece and a trumpet with a distinctively dark sound to get anywhere.

Equipment is a factor. It's just not the only factor.

This is spot on:
shofarguy wrote:
So, while any horn can sound like I want it to some of the time and across some of my capabilities, it takes a great horn to unlock ALL of my sound and allow me to explore the full extent of what I am capable of doing.

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kanemania
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll sound like yourself on just about every horn.

You can get a different sound with different mouthpieces.

Everybody should have a teacher.

Now can we return to the OP's question?
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albuquerque Duke wrote:
So.....I will sound the same whether I play:

1. 1920's peashooter with a Schilke 6A4a mpc

or

2. .470 bore Wild Thing with a Schilke 24 mpc

I doubt it.


No, I'm sure you wouldn't. At least, not initially. But I bet that, if you used your normal mouthpiece, whatever it might be, and you played either horn exclusively for any length of time (six months?), recorded something that covered a number of different musical bases with that instrument, and then did went through the same process with the other instrument, and compared them, they'd probably sound surprisingly similar.

I think the underlying idea here is that we basically ultimately play like ourselves. You might initially find something quite different after a mouthpiece change or instrument change (hence the often discussed honeymoon period), but over time, your mental sound concept, and your good habits and bad habits will take you back to basically sounding like yourself.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanemania wrote:
You'll sound like yourself on just about every horn.

You can get a different sound with different mouthpieces.

Everybody should have a teacher.

Now can we return to the OP's question?


Happy to, even though I shouldn't be using computers today, but I already ate and used the phone, so one more violation...

I played an Ajna II for two weeks and couldn't get much out of it. The sound just flopped on the floor, DINK!

I've had a Harrelson Bravura for months now, and it's a pleasure if I keep it up. The sound can be massaged (1 pipe, 6 bell, whatever that means) to a panoply of sound and while Jason had some pretty iffy instruments back in the day, he's got horns with signature sounds, but they must be played.

During a brass quintet yesterday, I started with my Selmer Paris K-Mod and after an hour switched out to the Brav during a particular piece, and while the group thought it sounded fine, the articulation, centering, general agility just wasn't there. Second time through the piece with the Selmer, viola. The Brav was singin' today after a dose of Arbans, but again, in the balance, the Monette I played didn't perform for me, the Bravura did/does.

Back to our regularly scheduled prayer book.

ed
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know science is not my God but I like it for most things I encounter when disusing machines and tools and a trumpet is both.

A hypothesis either proves to be correct and repeatable thus becoming a theory or it does not. Trust me I do not say half the stuff I would like to even on this site believe it or not..... Too much gray area and too much subjectivity and not enough repeatable mathematical test's or results.

I can almost guarantee hat Monette, Harrelson,Taylor all have a set of defining design idea's that guide them thus the repeatability of their product. Unlike Kanstul that has a bunch of unrelated designs they(Monette,Harrelson,Taylor) tend to build products with a family lineage baring one of custom experiments in design to keep them from getting bored.

In fact if you go to the Monette site and look at the Trophy that was made for him by his staff with production parts and such you will see that Monette has been doing what I thought where my idea's for some time. Look at how thick the knuckels are, the walls of the valve assembly the bell stem and so on. I have never owned a Monette and likely never will. I have seen plenty of them at Jazz festivals and such but never touched one and I doubt anyone would ever let me tear into one.LOL So this trophy or commemorative thing built from parts truly confirmed what I have been preaching for some time.

I think that if Jasson could build his own valve assembly totally in house he would do more things more like Monette. Monette started out building on OEM products I think I saw an Early Monette on ebay build from a Conn 1000 trumpet. SO as Jason ability to build more and more tooling in house and his ability to design some tooling increases in complexity his designs will evolve. I can never build what I want to build and see in my mind until I have the ability to build my own valve assembly. Why??? Because no one that will sell me a valve assembly builds them the way I need or want them to built. Monette builds his the way I would build mine but he is not selling them and even if he did I am sure it would be cost prohibitive.

Like wise who in this industry has a lot of different bell mandrels based on two piece designs that could build me two piece bells the way I want them built??? Again Monette and I see eye to eye on this one and almost no one else.

So a lot of the Monette sound and feel I am sure is down to valve case design just as much as the bell and leadpipe. I continue to think that 100% of mass produced trumpets have knuckles that are far too thin , valve assembly walls too thin as is their leadpipes and their bell stems. You do not need to build the trumpet super heavy but their needs to be more mass in a few places to get the sound and the trumpet to the next level. Jasson has gone about as far ashe can go sound wise until he has either his own valve case built for him or he can build his own.

I think Monette is kind of blend between Jasson Harrelson and Mr. Kanstul in that he has a lot of original idea's. copies what is worth coping, and can make anything he needs totaly in house if he so desires!

How many trumpet builder's make their own valve assembly and pistons in house???? How many build their own bells and leadpipes in house?


I saw anyone that thinks gear does not matter is kidding themself's. I am still waiting for someone to trade me one of their pro horns or even a nice Olds Recording or a Bach Strad for my Jupiter 600....Still not takers fromthe gear does not matter crowd and I doubt their ever will be! It is easy for someone with a lot of gear to sit back and preach gear does not matter. In every thing from racing cars. to shooting sports, to amateur radio operating even lifting weights which is about as cave man like as one can get gear can make or break a person.

In fact I never heard anyone that is "Pro Gear" as in they think gear matters every make the claim that you do not need to practice or that gear can take the place of practice or talent etc..... Telnet goes a long way I often out shoot people with better gear then me with WWII vintage sniper gear or Vietnam vintage technology. Why because I am better trained and have the natural talent that has been cultivated with practice. When I come up against someone that is my equal though gear makes the difference if all else is equal.

In the case of a trumpet I think Shofar hit the nail on the head. How comfortable is Adam Rappa going to be playing a gig on my Jupiter 600 with a Jupiter 7C MP compared to his latest Tantra trumpet. Will he still sound a million times better then me on it.....Sure but no way is he going to sound as good and as like himself as he would on his own gear. The fact that it is Monette gear does not matter as much as comfort level and confidence does.

As some one that tinkers a lot and is working on various projects I can say with out hesitation that gear matter. That does not mean that it has to say or be marketed as "Pro" and it does not mean it has to cost a lot. It just means it has to inspire you to try new things to explore new sounds, to try and get what we as musicians hear in our mind but often can not get out into the world. My Dad will laugh at me for saying this but as an artist anything that makes it easier for you to express yourself artistically is a good thing.

P.S. Life is good and a few projects have taken a surprising turn for the better......
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spitvalve
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP's question is basically: has anyone A-B'd Harrelsons and Monette trumpets?
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use a Monette and Harelson to hold down my music stand when I play my Flip Oakes. They both do an equal job, but the Monette lends a certain mystique to the holding of the stand . . .
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
I use a Monette and Harelson to hold down my music stand when I play my Flip Oakes. They both do an equal job, but the Monette lends a certain mystique to the holding of the stand . . .


Good on ya, Mate!



I'll bring my Wild Thing to your Celebration! Should be fun.

Brino
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can no more A_B a Harrelson and Monette then you can A-B a Porsche GT and Ford Mustang!!! I mean they are that radically different just because they both have gasoline powered engine four tires and a steering wheel do not make them A-B material!

Seriously who builds a valve assembly like Monette?, WHo builds a $6000+ dollar pro trumpet with a two piece bell besides Monette? Who builds a trumpet with bell stem, knuckles and other associated tubing as thick in the walls as Monette? Obviously I am talking about his modern designs not his original products. You can not compare a product that is out in left field all by itself with no one else doing anything more then coping the external appearance with anything else. You might as well tryt o compare a modern compound bow with carbon fiber arrow shafts and razor sharp high carbon steel broad heads with ancient American Indian bow's. ANy side by side comparison would be almost a total waste of time if the products differer that extremely in their basic engineering design.

Maybe you guys do not fully understand the engineering differences but they are huge and most of that is because Monette like most prefer's voodoo esoteric marketing over scientific marketing. If he did too much scientific marketing he would have to give away a lot of his perceived trade secrets. Even the names he gives his trumpets are steeped in Mysticism and Meta-Physics and Esoteric Arcane Spiritual beliefs. I am sure I will get in trouble for explaining this but Tantra the name of his latest 4 valve extended range Bb trumpet he made for Adam Rappa has it's name derived from "Tantric" and the older "Shakti" and so on cover a lot of ground from Spiritual Mundane of the Universe and it's creation and sustenance to intimate relations between a man and women as means of Spiritual Enlightenment and Expression by controlling bodily functions and Energy Perseverance based on Intimate energies in mans body all draped in a convuluded spiritualism.......ALso tied to Eastern Mysticism and Esoteric Shamanic Alternative Health Practices....So event he names have Voodoo Esoteric connotations.......SO while Monette puts a lot of science in his designs he leaves most of it out of his marketing!

I can put a fiberglass body that looks like a Ferrari on a Volkswagen chassis but it once you get past the surface it is nothing like the real thing.

Do you have $6000+ for a Monette if so why waste you time on anything else? No one that is seriously in the market for a Monette would consider a Harrelson. That is like someone looking at a Bently or Rolls Royce and a Cadillac no really the same market are they? ONly a few hundred thousand dollars difference.....I am guessing a Harrelson would be considered SLumming for those that can afford a Monette.

If someone has a closet full of Monettes and Harreslon choking their closet space or pole barn space and you want to lend me one on an extended loan basis let me know! I will gladly give you my address! If anyone has a Monette they want me to take apart and measure again do let me know!LOL

I can readily A-B it against my old Olds, Jupiter,Holtons,Buescher's and the like!LOL

Sorry I find the idea of an A-B comparison between two almost funny.

I love reviews of either product just do not see them as A-B material is all. Just wanted to point out why serious go take a look at the latest on his site do look at the commemorative made from production parts and such....It is very telling to anyone that has ever taken a horn apart.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yawn
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trmptz
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
You can no more A_B a Harrelson and Monette then you can A-B a Porsche GT and Ford Mustang!!! I mean they are that radically different just because they both have gasoline powered engine four tires and a steering wheel do not make them A-B material!

Seriously who builds a valve assembly like Monette?, WHo builds a $6000+ dollar pro trumpet with a two piece bell besides Monette? Who builds a trumpet with bell stem, knuckles and other associated tubing as thick in the walls as Monette? Obviously I am talking about his modern designs not his original products. You can not compare a product that is out in left field all by itself with no one else doing anything more then coping the external appearance with anything else. You might as well tryt o compare a modern compound bow with carbon fiber arrow shafts and razor sharp high carbon steel broad heads with ancient American Indian bow's. ANy side by side comparison would be almost a total waste of time if the products differer that extremely in their basic engineering design.

Maybe you guys do not fully understand the engineering differences but they are huge and most of that is because Monette like most prefer's voodoo esoteric marketing over scientific marketing. If he did too much scientific marketing he would have to give away a lot of his perceived trade secrets. Even the names he gives his trumpets are steeped in Mysticism and Meta-Physics and Esoteric Arcane Spiritual beliefs. I am sure I will get in trouble for explaining this but Tantra the name of his latest 4 valve extended range Bb trumpet he made for Adam Rappa has it's name derived from "Tantric" and the older "Shakti" and so on cover a lot of ground from Spiritual Mundane of the Universe and it's creation and sustenance to intimate relations between a man and women as means of Spiritual Enlightenment and Expression by controlling bodily functions and Energy Perseverance based on Intimate energies in mans body all draped in a convuluded spiritualism.......ALso tied to Eastern Mysticism and Esoteric Shamanic Alternative Health Practices....So event he names have Voodoo Esoteric connotations.......SO while Monette puts a lot of science in his designs he leaves most of it out of his marketing!

I can put a fiberglass body that looks like a Ferrari on a Volkswagen chassis but it once you get past the surface it is nothing like the real thing.

Do you have $6000+ for a Monette if so why waste you time on anything else? No one that is seriously in the market for a Monette would consider a Harrelson. That is like someone looking at a Bently or Rolls Royce and a Cadillac no really the same market are they? ONly a few hundred thousand dollars difference.....I am guessing a Harrelson would be considered SLumming for those that can afford a Monette.

If someone has a closet full of Monettes and Harreslon choking their closet space or pole barn space and you want to lend me one on an extended loan basis let me know! I will gladly give you my address! If anyone has a Monette they want me to take apart and measure again do let me know!LOL

I can readily A-B it against my old Olds, Jupiter,Holtons,Buescher's and the like!LOL

Sorry I find the idea of an A-B comparison between two almost funny.

I love reviews of either product just do not see them as A-B material is all. Just wanted to point out why serious go take a look at the latest on his site do look at the commemorative made from production parts and such....It is very telling to anyone that has ever taken a horn apart.



YAWNNNN!!!!
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trmptz wrote:
Quote:
Really long post


YAWNNNN!!!!

Which is more annoying?

- Really long post
- Really long post quoted in it's entirety for a single word comment

*yawn*

*sigh*
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