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Harrelson vs Monette


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UpracticeDaily
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:39 pm    Post subject: Monette vs Harrelson Reply with quote

Was Monette vs Harrelson the topic, and who has played both trumpets? I'm getting lost in the double talk about quality horns vs sub standard etc etc etc. that's another forum I think.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Lee wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
gordon really cleaned the clock here much better than i could have expressed.
this is somewhat relevant to this thread. a trumpet is a trumpet and i prefer when they look like a standard trumpet. it's a very nice design. i will never forget the first time i saw one in childhood and wowzers, what a neat contraption.
in today's world there is the compulsion to pimp things out and builders take the plumbing and massage it into cool industrial design, some of it very nicely proportioned and tasteful. to me however it is a crock. maybe they have learned how to handle this or that bend, and how to harden and hammer, and made some acoustic advancement over their competition. this is great but it is plain jane stuff and should be presented as a simple and nicely turned out piece of manufacture.
i do not want to pay for the level of industrial design taste, i do not want to sit and admire the level of beauty, as a pet peeve i loathe bracing, i don't want my maker's head anywhere other than factory science and acoustics.
i don't want any of it. i don't want some self important snot of a horn. i want to pick up a trumpet that was made by one of the many blue collar heroes of this world, that they fashioned to blow really nicely, and blow it.
..chuck


Hi Chuck:

I see that you are a cabinetmaker. I like cabinets-all kinds.
I would ask, do you only build one kind of cabinet?


That being said, why ever go to the cabinet maker when I can do a great kitchen with box cabinets from the lumber yard?
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

don,



as to cabinetmaking. the most important thing in business is making someone happy so work is done to that end as to style and dimension.
i operate within my limitations. the shop is filled with very nice austrian and american machinery, and can produce most work from basic architects' sketches. at a certain level of ornate the job would have to go to a legitimate shop. i have worked for tradesmen over the years that i am not fit to carry their tool box. i am too spread out being a jack of all trades to ever get that good as a cabinetmaker and keep satisfied with slow process advancements. if you love the work, it's all quite pithy, satisfying, and cool as heck.
where you can do some good in life within this framework is to see through the flaws in a plan that are always there, correct them, make further improvements yet, and give them better than they would have ever gotten from someone else. this is perceptual. also and more importantly save people from the heartbreak of spending money twice to correct mistakes. in the end it doesn't come down to whether i'm all that good. it's about taking care of people and seeing to their feelings.
this is the way i feel about flip oakes. he has taken care of me to such a ridiculous degree that it has gone beyond feeling good, to feeling like i've had the heart ripped out of my chest. i can't believe it is happening to me to the point of being devastated. it's a feeling and it's hard to explain.
i did not express myself that well about pushing the limit on industrial design. where the mischief is in this is that it can become a cover for price gouging. now andy taylor and his pointy flugel, that particular piece is an important statement, to free our minds from notions of how sound goes through the instrument. andy's chicago line, there's some nice stuff. the color work on a standard shape is enough to get most emotionally worked up.
do i mind other people buying monettes. chuck does not mind people who marry beautiful women, or live in high tax neighborhoods, or buy monettes, porsches, large SUVs, second homes, and the obligatory swimming pool. chuck minds paying for the experience,,, which in the end had better be more satisfying than more mundane options. better you than me and all that.
..chuck
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billybobb
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Retlaw wrote:
4 pages...12450 views and we are down to an off the shelf Bach 43...

Now we have diverted from Harrelson vs Monette to Bach.... anyone playing the Mariachi? How does it compare to the 43....


Walter


Nothing wrong with broadening the comparison. Maybe it's the difference between a Ferrari and a Ford, the Ferrari turns heads and gets you there, and the Ford just gets you there.


Yes there IS something wrong with it if it's not your thread. Any changes should be done by or with the blessing of the original poster IMO. Otherwise, start your own post. That's common sense.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That being said, why ever go to the cabinet maker when I can do a great kitchen with box cabinets from the lumber yard?
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joe brings up an important point here. materials can't be purchased for a job for the price of a screw together cabinet from IKEA. normal people do not go to the cabinetmaker. it was different 50 years ago.
what you see specified by the design trade, architects and decorators, that needs something custom built. the smaller the space you work in is also a handy place to get measurements done to the sixteenth for maximization.
when i finish a job, materials and proportions are such that it's 'one like that in the world'. that, is nice.
by its nature and as per your observation, it's not something to aggressively push.
..chuck
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billybobb wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Retlaw wrote:
4 pages...12450 views and we are down to an off the shelf Bach 43...

Now we have diverted from Harrelson vs Monette to Bach.... anyone playing the Mariachi? How does it compare to the 43....


Walter


Nothing wrong with broadening the comparison. Maybe it's the difference between a Ferrari and a Ford, the Ferrari turns heads and gets you there, and the Ford just gets you there.


Yes there IS something wrong with it if it's not your thread. Any changes should be done by or with the blessing of the original poster IMO. Otherwise, start your own post. That's common sense.


THE ORIGONAL THREAD WAS STARTED:

"Posted: 18 Sep 2010 14:11 Post subject: Harrelson vs Monette"

I THINK IT'S OK TO CHANGE IT UP A LITTLE NOW.
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Adam West
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This reminds me of that time when I had to vote on school mascot, and the choice was Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich.
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amuk
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never played a Monette or a Harrelson. What I've read seems to indicate that Monettes are great to play.
Unfortunately, to me they sound like plumbing rather than a trumpet---even when the greats play them.
Harrelsons sound, to me, like a trumpet--even the Gravity model.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam West wrote:
This reminds me of that time when I had to vote on school mascot, and the choice was Giant Douche or Turd Sandwich.



(Never played a Harrelson, enjoyed the Monette and Taylor trumpets I've played)
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amuk wrote:
I've never played a Monette or a Harrelson. What I've read seems to indicate that Monettes are great to play.
Unfortunately, to me they sound like plumbing rather than a trumpet---even when the greats play them.
Harrelsons sound, to me, like a trumpet--even the Gravity model.


please don't make a comment like that and just leave it. i have the feeling this is going to be good,,, what exactly are the sound qualities that go into sounding like plumbing? take some time and explain it.
i hear clips of monette trumpets and they sound like trumpets with a small difference in sound color. it's interesting but hasn't risen to compelling and i haven't heard any coherent explanation of what you can do, paying that price, that you can't do for the one third price.
jason is supposed to have advanced science and here as well it's unclear whether his stuff is easier to blow, interesting in timbre, or what the particular advantage is.
since i started in with trumpet the more i learn, the less i know. it's not a bad place to be.
..chuck
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DaTrump
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played both, the Monette does everything they say it does. The thing projects, whether it's pp or ff, the sound is going to move. Also, the sound doesn't "break," and there isn't a big change in tonal colors from soft to loud. Some like that, I personally don't. Harmonically speaking, it's got a lot of high and lot of lows, not so much mids. Their trumpets ring more like cornets than trumpets if that makes any sense. It has an even scale, incredibly in tune and incredibly open. The Monette's are just a whole nother animal so to speak.

Harrelson's are a bit different. To me, they are more of just REALLY REALLY good trumpets, but they are traditional in a sense. PP and FF sound different, like on most trumpets. Harrelson's also have phenomenal projection. The scale on them id fantastic as well and Jason gives you much more variety in sound and looks of the trumpet. The harmonic spectrum is good, full overtones while keeping the mids. An added bonus is Harrelson's don't have that exclusive nature, you can keep using your normal mouthpiece with good results (Jason even sets up the gap so it'll work just like you like) and you can take it to any old repair tech as compared to Monettes.

In a nutshell, both these makers make outstanding horns. However Harrelson's are more like improved trumpets and Monettes are a whole different animal. If I missed anything you want answered, you can always PM me.
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rpoutan
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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Hey, Jason!

I've been experimenting with Flip's accessory heavy top and bottom caps and stems lately. I have a full set of three different sizes of bottom caps and a set of top caps and stems. I think I've developed a bit more respect for your work on SWE.

I don't get very much chance to play, at this stage of my life. When I do, I've been able to maximize my results by adding the top caps and stems along with the lightest of the heavier bottom caps. This leaves almost all of the flexibility the stock horn has, but consolidates the tone noticeably. It gives the horn a more forward projection pattern, a denser core with more sparkle and a much more solid upper range without additional effort or unacceptable resistance. Slotting is more positive without being too locked down.

I believe my playing has become more efficient, over these past several years, and your ideas work better for me now than they did before. In the past, I tried the horn without the top caps and stems. The added weight at the bottom of the cases made the horn way too finicky. adjusting the tightness of each cap was critical just to make the horn playable, so I abandoned the idea. Now, I find that having extra mass at both ends of the valve casing brings balance back to the horn's response. But you already knew that, right?

Anyway, Bravo! on your work with the standing wave.

Brian

p.s. I really like the look of the laser-cut valve bracing you are doing these days.


Brian, I've found similar results as you did with your Wild Thing when I used Jason's swe trim kits on my various Kanstul Signature trumpets. The size and weights are similar to Flip's trim accessories. I also have a slight preference for the 3/8" bottom caps (lightest of the heavier bottom caps). They play slightly looser and provide a little more feedback compared to the 1/2" bottom caps. I sometimes use the 1/2" bottom cap on the 3rd valve with the 3/8" caps on the 1st and 2nd valves.
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpoutan wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Hey, Jason!

I've been experimenting with Flip's accessory heavy top and bottom caps and stems lately. I have a full set of three different sizes of bottom caps and a set of top caps and stems. I think I've developed a bit more respect for your work on SWE.

I don't get very much chance to play, at this stage of my life. When I do, I've been able to maximize my results by adding the top caps and stems along with the lightest of the heavier bottom caps. This leaves almost all of the flexibility the stock horn has, but consolidates the tone noticeably. It gives the horn a more forward projection pattern, a denser core with more sparkle and a much more solid upper range without additional effort or unacceptable resistance. Slotting is more positive without being too locked down.

I believe my playing has become more efficient, over these past several years, and your ideas work better for me now than they did before. In the past, I tried the horn without the top caps and stems. The added weight at the bottom of the cases made the horn way too finicky. adjusting the tightness of each cap was critical just to make the horn playable, so I abandoned the idea. Now, I find that having extra mass at both ends of the valve casing brings balance back to the horn's response. But you already knew that, right?

Anyway, Bravo! on your work with the standing wave.

Brian

p.s. I really like the look of the laser-cut valve bracing you are doing these days.


Brian, I've found similar results as you did with your Wild Thing when I used Jason's swe trim kits on my various Kanstul Signature trumpets. The size and weights are similar to Flip's trim accessories. I also have a slight preference for the 3/8" bottom caps (lightest of the heavier bottom caps). They play slightly looser and provide a little more feedback compared to the 1/2" bottom caps. I sometimes use the 1/2" bottom cap on the 3rd valve with the 3/8" caps on the 1st and 2nd valves.


You and Brain are just a matter of time away from becoming Harrelson owners. You get those results with the valve caps just think what the whole chalupa will give you.
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Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds7 wrote:
rpoutan wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
Hey, Jason!

I've been experimenting with Flip's accessory heavy top and bottom caps and stems lately. I have a full set of three different sizes of bottom caps and a set of top caps and stems. I think I've developed a bit more respect for your work on SWE.

I don't get very much chance to play, at this stage of my life. When I do, I've been able to maximize my results by adding the top caps and stems along with the lightest of the heavier bottom caps. This leaves almost all of the flexibility the stock horn has, but consolidates the tone noticeably. It gives the horn a more forward projection pattern, a denser core with more sparkle and a much more solid upper range without additional effort or unacceptable resistance. Slotting is more positive without being too locked down.

I believe my playing has become more efficient, over these past several years, and your ideas work better for me now than they did before. In the past, I tried the horn without the top caps and stems. The added weight at the bottom of the cases made the horn way too finicky. adjusting the tightness of each cap was critical just to make the horn playable, so I abandoned the idea. Now, I find that having extra mass at both ends of the valve casing brings balance back to the horn's response. But you already knew that, right?

Anyway, Bravo! on your work with the standing wave.

Brian

p.s. I really like the look of the laser-cut valve bracing you are doing these days.


Brian, I've found similar results as you did with your Wild Thing when I used Jason's swe trim kits on my various Kanstul Signature trumpets. The size and weights are similar to Flip's trim accessories. I also have a slight preference for the 3/8" bottom caps (lightest of the heavier bottom caps). They play slightly looser and provide a little more feedback compared to the 1/2" bottom caps. I sometimes use the 1/2" bottom cap on the 3rd valve with the 3/8" caps on the 1st and 2nd valves.


You and Brain are just a matter of time away from becoming Harrelson owners. You get those results with the valve caps just think what the whole chalupa will give you.


I've played two Bravura trumpets. I recognize the efforts that Jason has made and the direction he has taken his designs. But, it seems that his horns are made with narrow goals and capabilities; truly specialized. The Wild Thing was created to give the broadest capabilities. So, the WT and Harrelson are opposite ends of trumpet design. I prefer Flip Oakes' approach.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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trumpet_guy.david
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
I use a Monette and Harelson to hold down my music stand when I play my Flip Oakes. They both do an equal job, but the Monette lends a certain mystique to the holding of the stand . . .



^^^^^... Damn! Be sure to apply cool water to the burned area!


Now for the OPQ.

Monette and barrels on horn are fantastic in their own rights. BUT because we are all used to Bach( I'm generalizing, don't shoot me if you haven't) it's not really an easy transition to a horn like that. Dave totally redesigned the acoustics of the modern trumpet basing some of it on his fathers work in some kinda science( don't quote me but I've seen it somewhere). And Jason I think has used his knowledge to optimize the trumpet we know with super mad scientist stuff.
That being said. If you try one and don't like it, look at the the players who play them are doing. I read in an earlier post about going from a Bravura to a K-mod. Those are pretty for apart and to play each properly you can't play them the same way in my opinion.
I think that monette has essentially redesigned our sound. It's just not the Chicago sound that we all know and love. So, if you play either you'll eventually go back to sounding like you with differences. Especially with Dave's horns. I think it'll be asker with harrelson horns due to the traditional type design with new life to make it easier to play.

INHALE..... And I'm done. Thank for the OP. GREAT TOPIC, really!
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:

I've played two Bravura trumpets. I recognize the efforts that Jason has made and the direction he has taken his designs. But, it seems that his horns are made with narrow goals and capabilities; truly specialized. The Wild Thing was created to give the broadest capabilities. So, the WT and Harrelson are opposite ends of trumpet design. I prefer Flip Oakes' approach.

Brian


Brian, I have played far more Harrelson trumpets than just the Bravura (Which is a fine horn) With all the different bells, lp's and now offered in different weights they can cover the spectrum of sound from bright and edgy to dark and flugel like. The different lp's and tuning crooks can offer different feel of the blow. Not all models throw the sound forward from the bell and some give excellent feedback even in "micless" situations. I appreciate your dedication to FLip and I know from sources that he is a fine person and to some his horns are great. I have heard the wild thing is too open and offers little resistance kind of like my large bore Martin. A forum member who I will not mention by name but sells a lot of trumpets had an opportunity to sell me one but advised me against it. He is very respected on the trumpet boards and is a pro making a living at it like myself. He told me they were huge and tiring to play for extended periods of blowing like on a 3 to 4 hour gig and that they tend to lean dark in sound. Some would like these qualities of course but how is that not also narrow in scope of design?
I would encourage you to make it out to one of the trumpet shows if Jason is there and try his other models like the HT and the Summit one and I bet you come away with a much different impression of what you think is narrow goals and capabilities.
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Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
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laurent
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brian!

shofarguy wrote:

I've played two Bravura trumpets. I recognize the efforts that Jason has made and the direction he has taken his designs. But, it seems that his horns are made with narrow goals and capabilities; truly specialized. The Wild Thing was created to give the broadest capabilities.


I can't say anything about the Wild Thing, but what you say about the two Bravura that you have played is exactly what I experience with my HT3: although I've chosen the #4 lp "open and colorful", the blow is clearly on the tight side - which I find to be a little tiring - and the sound really hard to alter.
This horn sounds good, slots very well, isn't unpleasant to play, but with it I quickly feel limited.

That's why I much prefer my Courtois Évolution IV, much more open in all respects - blow and tone color -, although it doesn't slot as good as the HT3.

In fact, the Courtois is totally another animal. Maybe a little harder to control than the HT3 because of the loose slotting, but all in all for me much more satisfying!

In terms of projection and feedback, the Courtois is quite close to the HT3 but probably gives a little more of both things.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds,

I have worked hard at participating in this thread without co-opting it for another purpose or taking it in an unintended direction. Can we keep it a "Monette vs. Harrelson" thread, please?



What I mean is that one man builds to the individual requirements of each player, while the other builds one product that is the most capable tool he can devise.

I am sure that Jason is a wonderful person, player and designer. I intend to approach him and begin a working relationship in the near future. I hope I get to become more familiar with his product line.

Sounds, do what I do. Don't take someone (anyone) else's opinion as Gospel. Play the horns with an open mind and judge for yourself before passing on "information". My experience runs 180 degrees counter to what you wrote, but I've decided not to answer your Respected Professional Player's statements any further, in deference to the OP.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
Sounds,

I have worked hard at participating in this thread without co-opting it for another purpose or taking it in an unintended direction. Can we keep it a "Monette vs. Harrelson" thread, please?



What I mean is that one man builds to the individual requirements of each player, while the other builds one product that is the most capable tool he can devise.

I am sure that Jason is a wonderful person, player and designer. I intend to approach him and begin a working relationship in the near future. I hope I get to become more familiar with his product line.

Sounds, do what I do. Don't take someone (anyone) else's opinion as Gospel. Play the horns with an open mind and judge for yourself before passing on "information". My experience runs 180 degrees counter to what you wrote, but I've decided not to answer your Respected Professional Player's statements any further, in deference to the OP.

Brian


What I'm taking from what I read is that a Wild Thing will work for almost everything but if I just want it for just one thing like playing lead in a big band, there are more specialized options (other brand) that will work better?
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every instrument is a compromise. I own and play Monettes. I own and play Schilkes. I own and play Bachs. I own and play Sonarés. I own and play Yamahas. The point: they are all tools for a certain job. If I were pushed to only own and play one kind of instrument always, it would be a difficult and challenging task, because each of the above have a set of circumstances and a kind of use for which I need them. Not only use in terms of the groups and style I am playing, but also in the LOCATION in which I am playing.

To the OP, and I have written this now several times (as have others), play them all and find out what works for you. You will never truly know until you live with a horn for a while what capabilities are present in the trumpet, and in you with that trumpet. That cannot be dictated by a seller, or demonstrated by a teacher or pro, it has to work for you. I know that I wanted at one time to buy a MF Prana Bb from David Monette, and he said it was only for jazz use. I argued with him, got nowhere, and didn't buy it. Now, David is selling lighter and lighter Prana instruments to orchestral players, and I am sitting here angry at him because he wouldn't do that for me, a 30 year Monette client, but would for others. I also told him 15 years ago to start marketing lighter and lighter mouthpieces, and again, David knows more than I (according to him) and he did not want to do it. Have you noticed the XLT and LT models now available for sale? Along with the "entry level" mouthpieces (another suggestion to David he "poo-pooed" at the time), and how well they are doing? This is all to say that, if you find something you like, but want a custom maker to tweek something for you and they won't, keep pushing. Eventually, if you want it, there is likely a good market for it. And, if they won't, find one that will, and pay them to make it. The bottom line is that you are the customer, and no advice here is going to make a bigger difference than your own desires and personal preferences. Jason Harrelson and David Monette are the manufacturers of products they wish to sell. If they do not meet your needs or demands, move on.

And, do yourself a big favor and have an idea of what you want from them. Play current instruments, go to ITG or NTC and play what is available for trial. See what you like about horns. Buy a couple that you like, find their qualities and limitations for you, and contact your favorite maker to ask if they can expand on the qualities while limiting the issues.

Hope this helps,

Al
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