Custom built C trumpet choices

[royjohn]

Hi All,

I've found someone (who I don't want to ID now) who builds custom C trumpets from parts and seems reliable. The cost for a custom built C trumpet will be about $900, $400 for the builder plus parts. He'll be living near me by this summer, and we're going to design and build a horn then.

I wonder what parts/details you would recommend for building. A new Getzen valve section is $145, a used one, $100. That seems a no brainer. I suggested a Pilczuk leadpipe (about $90?) because I got one for my flugel that works well, but I am certainly open to other alternatives.

The builder suggested a 229 or 239 Bach bell or similar. I don't know where such would come from or what would be similar to these Bach bells. Some people suggest building a C from an Olds Ambassador and I don't know whether a bell from one would be a good choice. Also no idea yet about a tuning slide or slide type.

I thought a tuning bell would be a good option, eventually giving a choice of bells. I don't have much experience with C trumpets, but the one I have does feel a little stuffy or resistant [compared to Bb's], like most C's and I'd prefer a more open blow.

Since I am going to sell my present C to finance the project, I'd like to keep the total price in the $900 to $1200 range. I will play the instrument in small groups or at church. I'm not an orchestral player so I don't need a huge sound. My mpcs are all about the size of a Bach 1B, and these work best for me in both high and low ranges. For finishes, I like raw brass or silver. I wonder about a choice of metals like rose brass or copper for the bell and leadpipe.

I am interested in what thoughts any of you might have about parts to use, where to find them, what to do or not do or what features to include in the horn.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Crazy Finn]

I see from your sig that you've got a Conn Harry Glanz model C. What does that play like?

What would you want different about your future C?

You should try some Bach C trumpets - at least you'll have an idea what the 229 and 239 bells are like, sound-wise.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[Lboretrumpets]

something you can look into.... allied sells bach bells (and just about any other for that matter), but you need a repair shop to order it, they dont sell to the general public. william spencer (UK) sells bells as well, he's really good about getting you a price quickly. Also, mouthpiece express.com has just gotten a parts section, and they also sell bells (and lots of parts). as for slides, you can order slides or tubing. allied and M/K drawing both supply these. just know that slides preassembled are expensive (100 bucks and up), but cutting your own tubing is time consuming (though considerably cheaper). hope this helps...
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Bb- Stomvi Mambo
Bb- Custom Strad
Flugelhorn- Hunter NY

[ldwoods]

Royjohn,
I am curious why you are wanting to head down that road?

Why not find a used C in that price range and take all the guess work out of it? It sounds like a potentially costly experiment.

I just picked up a really sweet playing Schilke C for less than $1,000 and another solid playing UMI Benge C for much less than that. Why run the risk of sinking all that money into something you don't know if you will like or not?
_________________
Larry Woods
LDWoods

[royjohn]

Larry,

I guess I am the adventurous type, but playing a couple of this guy's horns first might not be a bad idea. I hadn't seen anything I thought I might want for less than about $1500, but I will keep looking and think about it. A Schilke for $1000 sounds interesting, but I haven't seen one.

The Glantz model doesn't sound bad and a technician who play tested it commented on the very intense sound, like Harry's. I find it a little stuffy as I go up the scale and I think it might be a better collectible than a player and might find a better home with someone who appreciated it as a collectible. That said, there was an pro orchestral player in the Netherlands who was anxious to buy it from me when I wasn't anxious to sell it and he eventually did end up with one he found in Europe. Maybe he has better lungs that I do. I have had some medical problems and have been specifically instructed not to force or I might have to have a fourth surgery on my diaphragm . . . . I'm going on the premise that if you can cough and sneeze, you can play high, as Pops says, but I do want a somewhat open blow.

Thanks for the tips so far, esp. about where parts might come from.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[cjl]

The way I read royjohn's post, he is interested in the building process; just curious with what can be done and what he'll end up with.

royjohn, I live just up the road from you near Bristol. I wonder if you are teaming up with the fellow who currently is up on the mountain, in Boone? If so, I think you'll have a fun time playing and experimenting!

By the way, Blackburn pipes are always good!

-- Joe

[PW-Factor]

I would look into Pilczuk, Blackburn, and M/K drawing for both the leadpipe and the tuning slide. For the valve block, a nice Getzen or Olds block, perhaps redone by Dr Valve, would be good. For a bell, a 229 or 239 are both safe bets, particularly if you can find a 229GH or something like that for cheap. Also, there's a guy called DQ who makes copper bells, so if you go the tuning bell route, you could look into a copper bell from him, too.

Best of Luck,
Patrick
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Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

[sunburstbasser]

If you can, try out a few Bach C trumpets in stores before settling on the bell. The 229 and 239 are similar, but you'll likely be drawn towards one more than the other. I like the 239 more, for instance.

A good leadpipe can open the blow a lot, and you might even try a round main tuning slide instead of a squared one.

A tuning bell C is an interesting setup, but unless you really like tuning bells they can be a hassle. Something to keep in mind.
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Kanstul 1600
Kanstul 1510
Calicchio 1s/2
Selmer 24B Lightweight K-Mod

[ford850]

First you need to decide what you want as far as sound, slotting, responsiveness etc. If you want it to sound like a Bach a Getzen body (lighter weight) may not be the way to go. If you would like a lighter zippier sound then Getzen is a good choice.
I would suggest you try different C trumpets and see what characteristics you like then look for parts. I like my 229 bell and the Bach sound but also want to do a project with a Benge #2 bell....a lighter sweeter sound. Good luck!
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Mark LaSavio
Shires CVLA
Kanstul Destino Bb
Getzen Renaissance 20S
Stomvi Master Bb cornet
Belcanto C

[Capt.Kirk]

Because real men build their Hot Rods they do not just go tot he dealership and buy a Corvette! That is why? Good thing you where not their to tell Henry FOrd not to build his first car since I am sure you would have seen that as a costly and experiment? What about the Microwave,TV,Jet Aircraft, Nuclear Medicine,Wireless Radio's,the light bulb and the list could go one and one!!!! All futile experiments! Good thing no one told Kanstul not to waste his time setting up his own company building instruments or we would not have him either!

Personally I think mass produced horns in their exclusiveness is for wimps! Real men take risks and live on th edge and like to do things differently. Good example the lady that was being accosted the other day and a Guatemalan man came to her aid. He got stabbed for his trouble and do you think any Americans came to his aid nope they just stood their and watched the guy bleed! The reason Terrorists could take a plane with box cutters and Airline Plastic silver ware is because most Americans will not lift a finger to help anyone not even themselves! Keep in mind all of this happened right here in the USA. No Police around to Protect and Serve because they are all busy out generating revenue by giving out speeding tickets I pass about 20 of them on my 30 minute drive to school each day! 99% of the time they are sitting on the side of the HWY hard to help people out when they are all sitting on the side of the road ready to hand out a ticket for speeding! I know in big cities it is a bit different just frustrated!

I am disappointed that their are so many cowards every where I look that are constantly looking to scare others into a life of making decisions based on fear of the unknown!What makes any of you think a life free of the unknown is worth living or in any way better then taking a risk? If he was happy with his current C trumpet he would not looking to replace it would he?

Ok if you can get a new Getzen valve assembly for $175 go for it might as well go knew that is cheap for such quality! I think you have the right idea with Pilczuk Leadpipe as well I like it on my Reynolds. Might think about reversed leadpipe to get all the length you can get! As for the bell you can get Kanstul to make it for you. Last I checked Yellow Brass Bells where $225,Bronze $345 and Copper $425 I think but Charlie can tell you. You can have him make a 229,239, or 7 bell in any material you like. I would go with Bronze it will get you most of the benefits of Copper but keep the price down. You can even have them silver plate it for 30% more on the price if you want it plated. You can also ask for it in various bore sizes from .460-.470 unless I am mistaken.

If you can live with a .462 bore bell and their is no reason why you should not be able to as you can run a larger bell then valve bore size but never a smaller bell bore then valve bore size. You can get a nice Bronze or Lub-A-Loy Reynolds bell off Ebay designed for C for cheap! They are on Ebay. A guy out of Michigan has a bunch of them. The Bronze Reynolds C Bell was a copy from the Besson C bell and it is a rather heavy bell. They are bent,have the bell wire soldered in place and the draw end is uncut so your guy can trim it to the final length he needs! I would recomend either a good buffing or bead plasting if you want it matt becasue these are in great shape but are older then you and I combined more then likely. These where used on Reynolds top of the line pro model C trumpets! I think he is asking between $114 and $150 either way I dare you to find a better price on a Bronze C bell any place on earth! These are New Old Stock.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[dawi69]

say again, please?

[TrptSTP]

[ldwoods]

Sorry cap't quirk, you make no sense.

I sometimes make it into the second paragraph of your posts, but had to call it quits after the second sentence.

[royjohn]

Hello All,

As the OP, I really appreciate all the feedback . . . if you have more, don't stop.

At the risk of roiling the waters still more, I have to say I understand some of what the Capt. is saying, even if he had to walk around the barn backwards while saying it! I trashed the Capt. a few days ago in another thread and don't always agree with him, but he offered some interesting information here and I think the basic idea he's promoting is that building a custom horn in the spirit of adventure is not such a bad idea. This is kind of like the old Doublemint Gum commercial . . . "You're both right!" A good C trumpet can come out of a store or out of a custom builder's shop. There isn't one right way. Just don't pick the wrong custom builder . . . and don't pick the wrong store bought C trumpet, either.

What I get out of this thread, besides a lot of good advice is that the trumpet community is a great place where people give freely without asking for a lot back. As it stands now, because of some very generous help from Tony Scodwell, we'll be able to try out a really sharp copper bell and some great Pilczuk leadpipes. Thanks, Tony! It will take a couple of months to get this project all done, but I hope I'l be able to report back here when it is finished. Meanwhile, don't stop talking, just aim where the bullet holes won't show.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Don Miles]

11

[swingshift]

I got a DQ custom C and its really nice...he does the same thing...uses a reclaimed (used) valve block and builds the rest..bells, tuning slides, leadpipes...really a nice player and NOT expensive...just try before you buy!
good luck in your search
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"beneath my goodie twoshoes lie some very dark socks..." lisa Simpson
Carol 5000 ylt-slt
bach 229 c with MC 2 pipe
yamaha 631 flug
jin bao rotary piccolo trumpet
wedge 5BC 25 and 5DC 25 with heavyweight Barrel ML shank

[Dan in Sydney]

Hey--I don't want to sound negative, but think about this:
At least 90% of PLAYERS, I mean men and women who are playing professionally or teaching meaningfully are spending their collective time making music, listening to others make music and growing as players and musicians and not piecing together instruments from other people's reject piles. Just have a good look around and see what players of note are using in Symphonic situations (I'm assuming because you want to build a C that you are a little bit orchestrally inclined) If you have a good C, how about spending the time and energy learning to really play it instead of getting rid of it for something that might not be in the same ballpark once you put it together. Do any really great players do this? I don't think so....
_________________
Principal Trumpet,
Sydney Symphony (1978-2011)
Lecturer in Trumpet, Australian National University 1990-2010
Bach Artist and Clinician, Soloist
http://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/artist-information/centerstage/artist-roster/daniel-mendelow/

[PW-Factor]

[royjohn]

I appreciate that we all have different opinions. To clarify, I have decided that I want a C trumpet with a more open blow than what I have. I will be playing some horns modified by the person who is slated to build the horn before the project goes forward. I've also been in touch with someone who knows this person and is familiar with others who have his modified horns and none of the customers are reported to be unhappy.

As far as cheap parts, so far I have located some very good parts (such as a Kanstul copper bell) which have been available at a very good price. I am not going to use a valve block that is leaky or of poor quality, but I understand that what I need can be had at a reasonable price. that's why I'm going forward with the project. If a decent used C trumpet cost $1000 to $1500 and the parts cost $1750, I might not be considering this. As it is I expect to get some of what I want in characteristics and should also save money.

This horn should be done by midsummer, so maybe the naysayers will just have to wait and see how it turns out.

I understand that the fit and finish of this mod may not be perfect, but I am more interested in how it plays and I can always have it cosmetically dressed out later if that becomes an issue.
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[Capt.Kirk]

I would disagree with DonMiles because Kanstul does not sell junk bells and he sells Yellow Brass bells all day long for less then $250. Reynolds Bronze NOS bells are not junk they are old production stock that was sold off when they went out of Business so $150 for a production Bronze Bell that has not even had it's draw end cut is cheap and high quality! Jengia Bro. Bells are good enough for Schilke and I can get them all day long for $50 or less in Copper,Bronze or Red Brass. Like wise last time I checked with Getzen about purchasing Valve assemblies for my own projects I was not given a price any where near $500 as Don Suggests and I think Getzen makes a great valve assembly. I like wise have have had a really good Tech. that also builds his own line of Trumpets quote me $500 to convert a current Bb trumpet or Cornet of mine to C so not everyone over charges for their service! Some people so grossly over charge for services that I am surprised they stay in business when this happens it does speak volumes for their customer service skills because rapport with customers wills eal the deal when money is drastically higher or more then other's in the same market. This is why people speak all the time about Schilke and Kanstul because of their customer service after the sale. Imagine that same rapport but at the beginning of the sales process it a deal maker.

I have found more then a handful of Tech.'s some of them very well known that are not in the practice of fleecing me. Those are the people I tend to go to when something is grossly beyond my ability to do it myself.In fact those people that build costume trumpets usually charge the best rates for little things. You have to be willing though to knock on doors or make phone calls and ask to find out who does what for a really good price!
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The only easy day was yesterday!