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Capt.Kirk
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Crazy Finn
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 Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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That thing's never going to play!
Oh....
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Brad361
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: If you want to see w Monette Cut away this is the Photo |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: | http://www.monette.net/newsite/online/Newsletter2009Summer/images/Party03.jpg
It proves I have been right all along about a good many things not the least of which is the need for thicker knuckles and valve cases.
Enjoy |
You ARE kidding, right? 
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Capt.Kirk
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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You know what Crazy FInn.....I know we do not always get along but even when you tick me off I still like you just so you know! Kind of like an sibling or annoying friend that knows how to push all of your buttons!LOL So just keep that in mind even when I get ticked at you I do like you a lot and would gladly have a beer with you if ever we meet up at ITG or something like that! My best and closets friends challengeme and tick me off all the time inthe real world and I like it most times!
Very Funny and Very True this Monette is not likely to play well....I am sure someone on this sight can play amazing grace on it but I am not likely too!!!LOL I need at least one working valve......LOL
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JonB
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Forget a valve alignment, I think this one needs a tuning slide alignment.
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LittleRusty
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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It probably has a very open blow.  |
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Capt.Kirk
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| Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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No brad I am not. Look at how thick those knuckle walls are. Also I just got done watching the shop tour video again. They make 3 bore sizes according to Dave and their tooling has dimensions on it if you look closely two of them are .462and .468 if I recall properly so that only leaves one other bore size and I doubt it is bigger then those two so probably something like .453....... Also if you look at the table full of parts he shows you the large ends of several leadpipes and claims they have 12 different thickness's for their tubing and none of them struck me as the thin stuff we normally associate with most trumpets like .025 or thinner. We know his trumpets are heavier then normal so that means more mass which has to be going some place.
Monette builds his trumpets the way he thinks they should be built not to a price point and not the way they have always been built. Just because they have done it a certain way for 100 years does not mean it is the best way just means it is one way. Everyone thinks the valve assembly does not matter much short of directing the air in a leak resistant manner but it does matter. The sonic energy has been ignored int he past and this is where you can still make radical improvements. I suspect Bauerfiend are like wise thicker and heavier then most production valve assemblies but I am guessing it is not fact.
The reason no one builds them like Monette is a combination of price point trumpet design combined with lack of drive and strategic vision. I am pretty sure Palm Tree's will sprout in Antarctica before Kanstul,BLessing,Bach,Conn, or Getzen builds a valve assembly the way I would want it built! First the trumpet purchaser's are not demanding it or asking for it. Second it would cost more which would heart profit margins and raise the cost fo their product. Third they would have to explain why it all of a sudden that they decided to do what should have been obvious for a long time when they have instead been pushing standard weight and light weight valve sections for so darn long!
I would love to prove that I am right because I know I am. Harrelson and Monette and Taylor have all proven that my idea's are right. The only person though that has done all of them is Monette because he can and the other two can not. So their really not my idea since other's beat me to it.
I am 100% sure that I could tweak an current Kanstul or Bach design with just modifications in wall thickness to various parts of the horn. I would love to make some material changes too but that is another topic all together. In fact I think I could reduce the weight of the 1500-A keep the look mostly in tact and improve every aspect of how it plays. I could easily take 30% of the mass of those ugly plain sheet braces on that horn and spread it out over the horn to produce a much more dramatic effect on the horns playing! While removing that 30% of the mass of each sheet brace I would add some designs to them so they do not just look like slabs of metal soldered in place. I could probably delete the heavy caps all together because most of the mass I added would be to the lower half of the valve assembly so we could delete the caps and arive at the same destination with a lighter horn that played better then the current design!
The trick is making the changes in such a way as to keep the valve assembly looking normal not massive and tank like! This way you can spread the re-tooling cost across the entire line of trumpets.
Not every tube has to be massive and thick I am not taking about the massive solid bar stock leadpipes on some Taylor horns and Harrelson and Monette horns...LOL That is just gross over kill and a waste of resources. I mean if you can sell it at a profit go for it but you do not need to take it to that extreme.
I think for too long American companies have been looking to cheapen their design to the bare minimum they can do to produce a decent product. What is needed now though is a move from the far right of MBA style price point trumpet design and manufactureing a little bit more towards the middle ground of why did they do it that was 100 years ago and how can I make it better! I have a post WWII Holton that has a cast Valve assembly. It is cast out of bronze not drawn tubing. It has a lot of mass and even thought he valves are worn out it still feels great in the hand and is smooth.
Trumpet players have been lied too about light weight valve assemblies some how improving response. It is not true at all. If it was Monettes would have the response time of a Semi Truck! Some well intentioned but mis-guided brass designer got it in his head that an all light weight trumpet would respond faster and play better. He got part of it right but it is not an all or nothing thing.......Same thing with efficiency some cat added a lot mass to a trumpet and it improved efficiency then they got stupid with it and went over board. Some it is probably because of limitations in tooling but some of it is also because most just do not understand physics and can not do the calculations needed to compute some of the things that they need too. Some of it is marketing.
Right amount of mass in the right places. For instance science not fantasy tells us that a .3mm bell will produce significantly more color and harmonics but try finding anyone int he USA that will make a bell that thin!!! Just so you know .3 millimeters = 0.0118110236 inch know this according to research available at Smith Watkins. Kanstul will not make them that thin too hard to do and I do not think they have any stock that thin. Their is no research showing a light weight valve assembly does anything and if Monette is right and I think he is then the opposite is true.
So now imagine if you will a nice properly designed valve assembly with .3mm yellow brass bell, a leadpipe .029 inch thick and main tuning slide to match with normal bracing in .462-.468 bore size. The right side of the horn is slightly heavier like a Schilke HD but the left hand side of the horn is super light. The middle would only be slightly heavier then a normal horn and would look th same we are not talking pounds we are talking onces. This would produce a horn that is lightning fast response time, much better then average efficiency and sizzle the likes of which few on this sight can imagine.
One can only design creative and original things when one get's away from group think, looks at the mission, and designs accordingly. I have been able to do some of that like leadpipe's I can now get them in differing thickness's. I can get some tuning slide crooks in different bores now and I have found some bells thicker and some lighter then average but nothing like I want. To the best of my knoldge no one makes a .3mm thick bell to match Smith Watkins and Boosey Hawks research.
The science is out their and the real world products are out their but either no one cares or is interested in going to the next level yet. In the case of Monette,Taylor and Harrelson they have made their reputation on heavier is better. They would be hard pressed to sell a middle of the road one side heavy one side light average looking horn! It is kind of the same problem Schilke has with their HD their reputation was built on lighter is better for the most part horns. When I predicted Schilke was building a Heavy trumpet with some of the idea's I have been talking about for over 2 years people everyone laughed at me and said "Schilke will never build a heavy horn!" they where wrong and I was right and again I think I am right with all of my idea's. Until some little buy does it and proves it works no one else will copy it the problem is a little guy unless he has insane capital to start out can not implement most of it due to tooling cost. It is a lot more expensive to build parts with tapering wall thickness. It is expensive to tool up for your own valve assembly etc......
Sorry so long but I am passionate about this. I think we are being cheated by lazy OEM's that could do so much better then they are doing now with regard to building the next generation of trumpets.
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nordlandstrompet
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Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:43 am Post subject: Re: If you want to see w Monette Cut away this is the Photo |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: | http://www.monette.net/newsite/online/Newsletter2009Summer/images/Party03.jpg
It proves I have been right all along about a good many things not the least of which is the need for thicker knuckles and valve cases.
Enjoy |
That picture does not prove anything else
than that a clarinet player has done some Photoshopping
and mixed the parts...
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trumpaid
New Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| It is not photoshopped. It is a cool looking award that was presented to Dave by his staff. There is an article and video coverage of it on Monette's website. It is amazing to me how misinformed people can make such statements. |
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: | No brad I am not. Look at how thick those knuckle walls are. Also I just got done watching the shop tour video again. They make 3 bore sizes according to Dave and their tooling has dimensions on it if you look closely two of them are .462and .468 if I recall properly so that only leaves one other bore size and I doubt it is bigger then those two so probably something like .453....... Also if you look at the table full of parts he shows you the large ends of several leadpipes and claims they have 12 different thickness's for their tubing and none of them struck me as the thin stuff we normally associate with most trumpets like .025 or thinner. We know his trumpets are heavier then normal so that means more mass which has to be going some place.
Monette builds his trumpets the way he thinks they should be built not to a price point and not the way they have always been built. Just because they have done it a certain way for 100 years does not mean it is the best way just means it is one way. Everyone thinks the valve assembly does not matter much short of directing the air in a leak resistant manner but it does matter. The sonic energy has been ignored int he past and this is where you can still make radical improvements. I suspect Bauerfiend are like wise thicker and heavier then most production valve assemblies but I am guessing it is not fact.
The reason no one builds them like Monette is a combination of price point trumpet design combined with lack of drive and strategic vision. I am pretty sure Palm Tree's will sprout in Antarctica before Kanstul,BLessing,Bach,Conn, or Getzen builds a valve assembly the way I would want it built! First the trumpet purchaser's are not demanding it or asking for it. Second it would cost more which would heart profit margins and raise the cost fo their product. Third they would have to explain why it all of a sudden that they decided to do what should have been obvious for a long time when they have instead been pushing standard weight and light weight valve sections for so darn long!
I would love to prove that I am right because I know I am. Harrelson and Monette and Taylor have all proven that my idea's are right. The only person though that has done all of them is Monette because he can and the other two can not. So their really not my idea since other's beat me to it.
I am 100% sure that I could tweak an current Kanstul or Bach design with just modifications in wall thickness to various parts of the horn. I would love to make some material changes too but that is another topic all together. In fact I think I could reduce the weight of the 1500-A keep the look mostly in tact and improve every aspect of how it plays. I could easily take 30% of the mass of those ugly plain sheet braces on that horn and spread it out over the horn to produce a much more dramatic effect on the horns playing! While removing that 30% of the mass of each sheet brace I would add some designs to them so they do not just look like slabs of metal soldered in place. I could probably delete the heavy caps all together because most of the mass I added would be to the lower half of the valve assembly so we could delete the caps and arive at the same destination with a lighter horn that played better then the current design!
The trick is making the changes in such a way as to keep the valve assembly looking normal not massive and tank like! This way you can spread the re-tooling cost across the entire line of trumpets.
Not every tube has to be massive and thick I am not taking about the massive solid bar stock leadpipes on some Taylor horns and Harrelson and Monette horns...LOL That is just gross over kill and a waste of resources. I mean if you can sell it at a profit go for it but you do not need to take it to that extreme.
I think for too long American companies have been looking to cheapen their design to the bare minimum they can do to produce a decent product. What is needed now though is a move from the far right of MBA style price point trumpet design and manufactureing a little bit more towards the middle ground of why did they do it that was 100 years ago and how can I make it better! I have a post WWII Holton that has a cast Valve assembly. It is cast out of bronze not drawn tubing. It has a lot of mass and even thought he valves are worn out it still feels great in the hand and is smooth.
Trumpet players have been lied too about light weight valve assemblies some how improving response. It is not true at all. If it was Monettes would have the response time of a Semi Truck! Some well intentioned but mis-guided brass designer got it in his head that an all light weight trumpet would respond faster and play better. He got part of it right but it is not an all or nothing thing.......Same thing with efficiency some cat added a lot mass to a trumpet and it improved efficiency then they got stupid with it and went over board. Some it is probably because of limitations in tooling but some of it is also because most just do not understand physics and can not do the calculations needed to compute some of the things that they need too. Some of it is marketing.
Right amount of mass in the right places. For instance science not fantasy tells us that a .3mm bell will produce significantly more color and harmonics but try finding anyone int he USA that will make a bell that thin!!! Just so you know .3 millimeters = 0.0118110236 inch know this according to research available at Smith Watkins. Kanstul will not make them that thin too hard to do and I do not think they have any stock that thin. Their is no research showing a light weight valve assembly does anything and if Monette is right and I think he is then the opposite is true.
So now imagine if you will a nice properly designed valve assembly with .3mm yellow brass bell, a leadpipe .029 inch thick and main tuning slide to match with normal bracing in .462-.468 bore size. The right side of the horn is slightly heavier like a Schilke HD but the left hand side of the horn is super light. The middle would only be slightly heavier then a normal horn and would look th same we are not talking pounds we are talking onces. This would produce a horn that is lightning fast response time, much better then average efficiency and sizzle the likes of which few on this sight can imagine.
One can only design creative and original things when one get's away from group think, looks at the mission, and designs accordingly. I have been able to do some of that like leadpipe's I can now get them in differing thickness's. I can get some tuning slide crooks in different bores now and I have found some bells thicker and some lighter then average but nothing like I want. To the best of my knoldge no one makes a .3mm thick bell to match Smith Watkins and Boosey Hawks research.
The science is out their and the real world products are out their but either no one cares or is interested in going to the next level yet. In the case of Monette,Taylor and Harrelson they have made their reputation on heavier is better. They would be hard pressed to sell a middle of the road one side heavy one side light average looking horn! It is kind of the same problem Schilke has with their HD their reputation was built on lighter is better for the most part horns. When I predicted Schilke was building a Heavy trumpet with some of the idea's I have been talking about for over 2 years people everyone laughed at me and said "Schilke will never build a heavy horn!" they where wrong and I was right and again I think I am right with all of my idea's. Until some little buy does it and proves it works no one else will copy it the problem is a little guy unless he has insane capital to start out can not implement most of it due to tooling cost. It is a lot more expensive to build parts with tapering wall thickness. It is expensive to tool up for your own valve assembly etc......
Sorry so long but I am passionate about this. I think we are being cheated by lazy OEM's that could do so much better then they are doing now with regard to building the next generation of trumpets. |
Oh, ok, got it. It certainly does prove that you have "been right all along." Bet Mr. Monette is glad you agree as well. 
Brad361 |
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gregplo
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jan 2002
Posts: 505
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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The mouthpiece looks like an "Anti-Asymmetric" model.
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gbdeamer
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 2303
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: If you want to see w Monette Cut away this is the Photo |
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| Capt.Kirk wrote: |
It proves I have been right all along about a good many things not the least of which is the need for thicker knuckles and valve cases.
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The only way for you to "prove" anything would be to to change your knowledge from theoretical to practical and CREATE something.
You have proven nothing. Create something that plays beautifully. Instead you just make clunky frankenhorns. |
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