Beating a dead horse.

dbleC · Regular Member Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Posts: 81

Sure...I really hope it doesn't take a year. Just bummed that the thing was paid for so long ago and then we have to sit and wonder like this. I will say this though, if there were any amount of professional common courtesy in the communication, it would change the whole deal. But, I would never recommend JH to anyone I know. Even if it does play like a dream. And to think, we chose this over a Lawler. The way Roy treats people would have made up for any wait!!

MikeyMike · Heavyweight Member Joined: 06 Nov 2007 Posts: 1680

ldwoods · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject:

Bruin · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject:

johnsboy · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 380

"Just bummed that the thing was paid for so long ago and then we have to sit and wonder like this."

I guess I'm really naive as regards the custom build market and how transactions are structured. In my world, when you buy something of this nature, you might give the builder some of the money up front, and you might make progress payments along the way, and you would certainly make final payment upon delivery of the product . . . but you would never pay the entire amount up front. If you do pay the entire amount up front, even a designer/builder with the best of intentions will have no incentive to stay on task and finish the project on time and on budget. Using a progress payment system ensures communication of the builder's progress - if he keeps you in the dark about progress there's no one he can blame but himself when he doesn't get a check. These things should be set up something like: $2,500 horn - $1,000 up front (earnest money?), $1,000 when email photos show an 80% complete trumpet, $500 to "release" the trumpet and ship to the customer upon "final completion". I'd like to withhold 10% ($250) to be sent after it's received and meets inspection . . . but I know that's probably dreaming. But paying 100% up front? That's just crazy talk.

supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

Does Harrelson actually get full payment up front? No wonder there's no rush to get it complete and ready to deliver... If that's true, it's not the way most folks do business in my world either.
_________________
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1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet

"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

Brad361 · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject:

LittleRusty · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject:

Please note that I am not venturing an opinion on Jason's business practices. I said enough in the marathon thread.

Johnsboy your idea has merit, but I am not sure how one would determine 80%. Perhaps the progress payment should be made when the horn is assembled and ready for finish.

Tuba · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 164

mikethespyke · New Member Joined: 14 Oct 2010 Posts: 3

Hi All
I have checked this forum out on a few occasions but this is my first post. I have scanned through alot of the posts concerning JH and his horns.
This is not meant to agree or disagree with any pervious posts, but just the facts about my personal experiences with Jason. Dec 2008 I purchased a Bravura on Ebay. I paid the full amount and then had a long distant phone consultaion with Jason. I found him to be a very helpful in picking out the options that would fit my level of playing and style of music. I recieved the horn in about 5-6 months. All I can say, is the horn exceeded my expectations.

About 3 months after I recieved my horn, my girlfriend was carrying her sewing machine , stepped on the cord and fell on my Ritter gig bag, housing my new Bb trumpet and my Flugel horn. Both suffered massive damage. Bells bent, tubes bent and valves not working.(I'd post pictures if I knew how) She was very upset , as was I. I litterly went out and sat in my truck and cried....I spent money I really could not afford and just had a baby..yada yada..what was I going to do?...I phoned Jason...in short he said "sent back to me and I will see what I can do. I built it from nothing, I should be able to repair from somthing" were his words. I recieve both my trumpet and Flugel horn back. I could not tell the difference from my original horn. He sourced and installed a new bell on my flugel and it sounds fuller than the original. He repaired everything for 30% of what I thought it was going to cost, so I was extremly happy to say the least. I also had Jason make 2 mouthpieces.

I have since also ordered a C Summit. I will admit that it has been a long time coming, but being in busines myself, I know how timelines can go off the tracks. I also know that sometimes a persons best intentions can also go sideways. I'm putting my trust in, that Jason is doing the best he can given all the changes /challenges, (new shop, equipment...etc) that he has faced. I know in perfect world things would be different, but I would rather wait for a piece of art, then have piece of crap right a way.

From the lifetime of enjoyment that my horns are going to bring, the delays in delivery pale by comparison. "there will be no fine wine, untill it is time" Like I said at the beginning, this is just my storey

Mike the Spyke from Yellowknife

PS I just had another child and named him Chase
PSS my Bravura is in a Torpedo Case...it is bullet proof and my flugel is back in it's stock hard case and all sewing machines are banned from my "man cave"[/img]

Wildman · Heavyweight Member Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 513

TrptSTP

shofarguy

Flattergrub · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Sep 2008 Posts: 762

Winghorn · Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject:

When I bought my Monette 935 in 1993, I put about a third down and then sent money whenever I had a little extra. I was quoted a 9 month delivery time, so was able to plan and make my payments so that when the horn was finished (in about nine months), I had paid the total purchase price and could pick up my horn immediately. I felt very secure knowing that if I did not ultimately like the horn, I would be given a FULL REFUND, no questions asked. Also, I was free to cancel my order at any time during the build process for any reason, and have ALL the money I had paid in refunded IMMEDIATELY. Also adding to my sense of security about my Monette purchase was the immediate response I got from the Monette shop whenever I had a question or concern. They picked up the phone immediately EVERY time I called, and they made it clear to me that they appreciated my business. Real class!
I would never put up with being treated the way Harrelson trumpets has treated so many of their customers in the past. I have more pride than that. If someone wants a Harrelson that bad, they should probably buy a used one. There always seems to be one or more for sale in the Marketplace or on e-bay- usually at a much reduced price. Each of us must let of hearts be our guide, but for goodness sakes, enough of the lame defenses by some posters of business practices that are clearly bad.

Steve Allison

Retlaw · Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:19 am Post subject:

Why the picture? Just so the doubting Wildmen believe that I actually did buy one....

No.... I don't know Jason ....only had one conversation during the consultation.

I think most people have got the picture.....yes there have been about 4/5 newer Harrelson horns put up for sale in the marketplace...I have easily seen as many Lawler C7's and Wild Things. In fact as posted by our OP in a previous thread he has an issue with his Wild Thing. One person who put up his Harrelson for sale told me how good it was...... the issue of the sale was mainly about the buying experience.....for which I can sympathize. It would seem that we are a sentimental lot who keep horns because someone dear bought it for us....or it has come with us on a journey of good memories.....or we have found the perfect fit for us.

I am also sure many horns are sold because we fail to get on with them. There are always one year old horns in the marketplace for sale...mint condition... no dings and probably less playing time..... didn't get through the honeymoon.

I sympathise with those who have had a difficult purchase and I agree with Steve.....the situation of communication and money is less than ideal. I suspect that Jason knows this and is trying to turn it around.... most of the posts here are from a buyer perspective...turn it around ...how many could start a business from scratch and run it to the high ideals set out here. I am sure some of you have done just that.... many wouldn't know how to start a business if their life depended on it.....let alone produce something that people want. Ever had to deal with a bank and a large overdraft....you know what I am talking about!

Threads like this will raise the awareness of Harrelson Trumpets.....some prospective purchasers will say no thanks....got the message about the business end....not prepared to wait or pay up front. Others will say yes please....got the message about how good the horns are and will put up with the less than idea purchase circumstances. The long wait says a lot.... Jason is building a lot of horns relative to a small business. There was a blind sound test here on TH which included a wide variety of trumpets.... a Bravura won the poll.

The reality of this and the other related threads is that the vast majority who read them and do not post can see clearly what is going on.....from both sides of the fence........ the posts are really pretty transparent.

Walter
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."

supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

Retlaw · Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:12 am Post subject:

I agree..... but the use of the word "trying" sometimes involves others. Banks....overdrafts....new machines..... and a whole host of circumstances can make it difficult to bring about change. It may be possible to make a "decision" to change in life....sometimes the working out of that takes longer and involves outside help. A black and white decision for immediate change could put Jason out of business.... "cash flow" is the bane of many many small businesses. Some might "rub their hands" together at the thought....

Walter
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."

tom turner · Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject:

I've read he gets a lot of his parts from various suppliers to build his horns. Thus, he is at the mercy of all those suppliers to get him his parts when he's promised.

One thing can always delay shipments coming in to any business that needs those materials and parts, and that's if this happens to YOUR business, you are entering a danger zone . . .

http://www.jpbrown.com/pdcredit.htm

(Read the part that defines the common term "_____ Hold."

When I see businesses that consistently fail to meet their manufacturing dates, or merchants who consistently fail to maintain inventory, I always suspect that the above situation is the case.

"Credit Hold" is a downward spiral for most businesses, for customers get mad and cancel their orders when ship dates are missed . . . and the maker NEEDS all that deposit money from waiting customers to TRY to catch up on paying past due bills so they can get off "credit hold." Businessmen aren't gonna tell ya either when they are in trouble like this, and for obvious reasons.

When the money stops flowing in, and the businessman is on credit hold with their suppliers due to unpaid shipment bills . . . the businessman sees his banker for a loan, but bankers ain't gonna lend if a business has cash flow problems . . . particularly in this economy.

Not saying that this is the problem, but it walks and quacks like a duck . . .