Misconception About What Makes a Lyrical Horn

[PW-Factor]

I was talking to my teacher today about what makes for a lyrical trumpet. The conception among a lot of people is that a heavier horn makes for the most lyrical tone. However, a lot of the time heavier horns are more accurately known for their ability to play very loudly without breaking up. They take more air to activate, but can also handle more sound.

However, one detriment of a heavy horn is that it can tend to sound dead at piano dynamics. It typically doesn't carry as well, or have enough brilliance to the sound in the lower register, or at pianissimo level dynamics. While it's great for fortissimo playing, it can just sound a bit tubby and lifeless at the piano, lower register parts.

So, wouldn't it make sense, for the truly lyrical passages, to lean towards a lighter weight horn? Not lightweight in the sense of sizzle, or a nasally sound. However, a lightweight bell would activate at a lower dynamic, and would have more high overtones in the lower register, giving a better carrying timbre without playing overly loud.

I'm not trying to say that someone should play a Yamaha LA or Schilke B6 as their most lyrical horn, but am I alone in thinking that something along those lines (though not as extreme) would be better for the amount of delicacy and touch involved in quieter, lyrical playing?
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Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

[Crazy Finn]

A "lyrical" horn is all about how it's played, not what horn it is.

Any horn can be lyrical.

Playing lyrically and musically is a skill that needs to be developed and nurtured and honed through hours of practice - just like all those other trumpet skills.

If you've got the right skills, nice tone, and a sense of line and melody - then you can play lyrically and any horn can be lyrical (assuming that you've developed those skills on that horn and thus they're not difficult to accomplish on it).

Some horns produce slightly different tones. For example, the Bach 184L cornet I have played and my standard Yamaha 6335S sound somewhat different - well, because they are - but it's quite possible for me to play lyrically on each.

Your skills are far more important for lyrical playing that what horn you might use - as long as it's one that fits you well and you can perform well on.
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LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[Crazy Finn]

[Nonsense Eliminator]

I think the problem is that people think a "dark" sound is required for lyrical playing. A good sound is required for lyrical playing! The other thing that I think is necessary is the broadest possible dynamic range with a beautiful sound, because this gives you the largest palette of colours. To me, that tends to suggest something other than a light horn, as those instruments tend to start to get burn in the sound at lower dynamics. It also rules out equipment that gives an exceptionally dark sound, because this tends to compress the available dynamic range. It doesn't mean these couldn't work, but to me the ideal instrument for lyrical playing -- and, fundamentally, everything should be as lyrical as we can make it -- is one that is vibrant and luminous at all dynamic levels without unwanted edge.

To be blunt, for some players heavy and/or "dark" equipment is desirable for lyrical playing because this is the easiest way to mask a sound which is harsh, thin, or brittle.
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Richard Sandals
NBO

[PW-Factor]

I do realize it is 95% the player to play lyrically. It just seems to me that in my experience, heavyweight Taylors, Heavy Yamahas, and Bachs with added weight are harder to make ring in the piano range.

I guess it's primarily how much effort is involved in making the horn itself ring, sing, activate, whatever terminology you prefer.

And flugels and cornets are a different kind of lyrical. A more smokey, dark lyrical.

Maybe ease of purity is what I'm going for here.
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Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

[shofarguy]

I like this subject. Most of my playing is "lyrical", playing melodies or harmonies or obbligatos. My search for a more lyrical setup is what has dominated my journey for the past 4 or 5 years. Here is what I have found.

A lightweight bell will respond at low volume, but if it's too light, it will break up at high volume. Is a lightweight bell the only way to get great responsiveness? I have found the answer to be "no". There are other structural elements involved, like bracing and wrap.

A larger mouthpiece throat will allow for more variation of brilliance to be attained. Generally, there is less brilliance at low volume the bigger the throat is bored. So, to create a wide brilliance to volume range, a larger mouthpiece bore can be used. One can also adjust the horn's blow and the player's airflow to feel most natural by changing the bore size. For me, the best combination is typically around #19 - #16.

Back bores and cups make the job easier, too. A tight back bore gives a player less wiggle room, as does a shallow cup. I try to keep the cup just big enough to give me room to articulate but shallow enough to support the upper register. Same with the back bore, but wide slots are a must.

Valve blocks affect a horns ability to separate notes. My Benge tends to make each note slur into the next, while my Wild Thing pops from one note to the next crisply. If I want to sound like Perry Como, I'd best choose the Benge.

The last piece of this puzzle I'm working on is a mouthpiece that allows me to play throughout my usable range easily and with a full range of dynamics and colors from top to bottom. I believe I have found it and I am working now to understand how it sounds and how to use its capabilities.

The balanced combination of all the components (including the player) can produce a trumpet that plays lyrically. To me, the measure is not if one can play lyrically, but how little effort it takes to do so. Of course one must practice good technique to maximize the result, but finding the best combination leaves more time and effort to put into music, instead of fighting unresponsive equipment.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[PW-Factor]

I have noticed that with my Mt Vernon 8B I have a great, full, warm sound, regardless of dynamic. However, range isn't great (around B above the staff it starts to get thin) and intonation is very difficult. I can't wait for my new Hammond 5MB and 5MLH pieces to come in. I think the MLH combined with my Large Step Bore Lawler may help me achieve the greatest spectrum of colors.

My current legit set up, a 5MV on my Lawler, gets a little on the smokey side down low, and quiet, and a bit on the bright side when loud and/or high. I'm trying to strike a balance personally, but I can't be sure how much my set up is affecting it until I experiment a little.

Recital next Wednesday, though, so no major changes until then.
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Ska/Reggae - The Selectones
New Orleans Funk - The Big Lagniappe

Raw Brass HB2 - Hammond PW
Gen II ACB Doubler Flugel - Curry 5FL

[Adam V]

To the OP...

Just for the record- lower tones carry farther, not higher ones.
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1970 Bach 37 Strad
Yamaha 635 flugel

Marcinkiewicz E3/3C

[oljackboy]

That business with lower tones carrying further than higher ones is SO counter-intuitive! Playing in a big band section, it certainly seems as if the lower tones have to be "played up" to the higher ones to get a balance.
I absolutely understand the physics of the issue, but can't help but think there is something more than simple frequencies going on.

[Nonsense Eliminator]

[Dale Proctor]

If you want lyrical, rich, sweet, singing, dark, etc., buy a good cornet and a proper cornet mouthpiece.

Of course, you have to learn to play it that way, too. On a trumpet, a big mouthpiece with a larger throat and/or open backbore will go a long way toward what you're thinking about - that, and playing musically in the proper style to accomplish it.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[oliver king]

I thought it was about the player's willingness to LIVE in the Concone Vocalises. The horn is just an amplifier or mirror for what we are hearing or imagining.
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LB Bel Canto #59
Holton B47
Frankenhorn projects 1-5
Adams F1
Olds Super Tenor Trombone
Alesis QS8
B2MS3, B2GS3,

[INTJ]

I thought what made a lyrical horn was a lyrical horn manufacturer.............
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Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel

Harrelson 5mm MP

[FLgargoyle]

I would say it's mostly player, followed by mouthpiece, and lastly by horn. I am a rather lyrical player by nature, and can get a pretty sweet sound of nearly anything, but my Conn 40B with a LOUD lead piece is pretty darn hard to make sound sweet. Plug a large, deep mpc into it, and it's definitely sweeter, but not in a class with my Olds Super. But if there's paint that needs peeling, the 40B is the weapon of choice!
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Jay
'64 Olds Super Trumpet
'35 Conn 40B Vocabell
'55 King Master Cornet
'40 Conn Aida Trumpet
'21 Boston Alto Horn

[Dale Proctor]

I peeled some paint at a rehearsal last night with my Conn 6B Victor and a 9BW Connstellation mouthpiece...

I also played "lyrically" on my Conn 5A Victor and a Wick 4B mouthpiece.

The matched pair...

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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham