• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Beating a dead horse.


Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dbleC
Regular Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Beating a dead horse. Reply with quote

I know this is a tired subject but...

My dad bought a Bravura [horn intended for me] and paid for it on Jan 11. Still don't have any clue when it will be delivered. Attempts at communication are futile. The website shows a completion date of 8/23. I think we are into October, right?! This is the third or fourth completion date so far. Terrible experience.

Sorry, wanted to vent!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fraserhutch
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 2548
Location: Oakville, ON Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear it, dude, I know what the anticipation of a new horn is like, and I cannot imagine that type of wait.

Hope you see it soon.
_________________
Schilke B1
Callet Jazz
Scodwell Standard Bb
Roger Ingram 1600is
Wild Thing Flugel
Dillon Rotary Picc.
GR and Curry Mouthpieces
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Retlaw
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 3263
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a hard wait but it will come. A friend of mine who ordered before you has just received his....he is absolutely delighted in spite of the frustrating long wait. From personal experience and his.....it will come and it is worth the wait.
Sometimes good things take time....

I can fully understand the vent.....hopefully it won't be long.... I know for a fact that some of the horns that have been delivered have not been registered as such on the website....

Walter
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Beating a dead horse. Reply with quote

dbleC wrote:
I know this is a tired subject but...

My dad bought a Bravura [horn intended for me] and paid for it on Jan 11. Still don't have any clue when it will be delivered. Attempts at communication are futile. The website shows a completion date of 8/23. I think we are into October, right?! This is the third or fourth completion date so far. Terrible experience.

Sorry, wanted to vent!
I'd have no problem with waiting... but I should know how long the wait will be before I sign the check. That would frost my butt pretty good and I'd shy away from making a commitment if the maker wasn't able to commit on his end. Hell even (house) builders have completion dates or expected construction times and deadlines. It's not unreasonable to expect.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Capt.Kirk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 5792

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is comon with all custom builder's. Even Monette has a long long wait time unless you are someone special then it is get in line hurry up and wait! I was on the site the other night and he had some pre-made ready to ship but when you order the pre-made ready to ship horn you have no choice in leadpipe or bell or finger rings it is take it as is if you want it right now! One of the reason Bach toss's the 25 pipe on everything unless you custome order is because it simplifies production.

In this case you dealing with a manufacture where 99.9% of his sales are custom combinations their is no mass production. Sure he can make up tons of parts in advance but he still has to grab each bell, leadpipe, finger ring and so one based on individual build sheets.

I would not put up a time frame for build and ship unless I was going to keep it up to date and give myself a large margin for error. Better to under promise and over deliver then the other way around.

Since no one has been cheated out of a horn yet and everyone loves it when it arrives I would just try to be patient. I know your generation has impulse control issues and has patients issues but really not much you can do! I do not think this is a case where the squeaky wheel gets all the grease while the quite well goes un-noticed. I think it is just a labor intensive product and hard to predict daily production volume. Some days things go together and you cannot make a mistake other days parts fight you and nothing you do is right. In this case nothing less then getting it right the first time will do. Large OEM's often send out stuff that is only 90% but do you think a custom horn should routinely reach it's owner new in 90% condition?

Yes, I like Jason he has been friendly to me but I have in the past made it known that I did not like the way he was handling customer service in a polite way so I am not defending him just because I like him! I think this type of problem is just part of the process of having a small volume custom horn built to order at a price point that is not much higher then a Kanstul Signature Series mass produced horn! All of us that would love to own a Monette but can not afford to end up turning to Jasson and Taylor because the price point and performance is a closer match to what most can afford!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jgadvert
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 1105
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You read this stuff on an internet site where a person has been waiting more than 9 months for delivery of a horn.

Far beyond freakin ridiculous.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Wildman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 513

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like ... Harrelson, is at it again. TELL HIM TO TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS.

Edited by Moderators: name calling is not permitted on the TH. Definitely refrain.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MikeyMike
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Nov 2007
Posts: 1680

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shill be there eventually.
_________________
Ahh... that old case smell.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bill Dishman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 1174

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject: Special Order Horns Reply with quote

I can be patient if I feel I am being dealt with in a "stand up" manner.
One's "word" should be a valuable commodity. (Unfortunately this is not always the case.)

Regarding the Harrelson issue....

I am not at all familiar with the horns but the lack of communication from the maker would seem to be a poor indicator. The Harrelson horns are quite expensive I noticed and a question arises as to how much of the buyer's money is tied up for months on end? Even with today's miserable interest rates, this should be taken into consideration IMO in deducting it from the cost.

On the other hand....

"Good things come to those who wait."

I ordered a special order horn from Bach a few years back and kept getting the runaround from the shop as to when it would be made and delivered. Waited two years! (Had no money tied up however as I went through my local music store.)

How was the horn? The best C trumpet I have ever played! ( I own several and have owned several more over the years.)

Good luck....I know it can be frustrating.

Bill Dishman
Gainesville, Florida
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capt.Kirk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 5792

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well just a question but if you order a Bach 72 Gold Brass Heavy Bell trumpet with a 7 pipe on it donot have to wait like 6 months what is basically a production horn with a different pipe on it? So what is 9 months? Monette has a longer waiting period then 9 months no one is bad mouthing Monette? If you want a production item from Getzen like their Artist Series or something often you have to place the order with your dealer and wait months or more and that is not even ordering options on it that is just as it is routinely built to catalog specifications again no one complains openly about it!

It is well established that Jason has a long wait time for his horns and that his ship dates are more like "Optomistic Ship Dates or Projected Ship Dates" and such. This is not "NEWS" to anyone. If you want it fast buy off the rack mass produced horns. Buy what is in stock and ready to ship instead of customizing it! If it too much for you then take your money some place else. I am sure if he charged $10,000 a horn he could hire more help and pump them out a bit faster. It is an unfortunate truth that his price point is one of the lowest for the type of horn he builds and sells staff cost money and so does tooling and supplies. What do you want and how much will pay for it?

I am pretty sure you can order a kanstul 1500-A heavy horn for around $3000 and have it at your door in about a week but it is not a Bravura now is it? I am pretty sure most of Jasons Bells and Leadipes are not in production by other companies so just like Taylors bell profile is his own and not a clone of Bach's bells or Benges or Conn's! Just like Flips WildThing is not a clone of another production bell profile.So if you want a Taylor, Monette or Harrelson you pretty much have to wait how ever long it takes because no one does a good clone of any of these horns!


Maybe you guys should talk Carol into doing a Monette,Taylor,Flip Oaks WildThing Clone if you so tired of waiting? Maybe you can get Bach,Kanstul,Conn to build something like these? I hear all kinds of complaining but no one is willing to tell the big boys what they want and what price point they want it at! Companies will normally build what you ask for if enough people make enough noise! Prices are set to get people to purchase. Look at what happened with Zeus Line...At $750 people laughed at them and called them junk! Once he leaked they where made by Kanstul and Raised his price to $2000 all of a sudden like magic they where great horns! So you guys have you own stupidity and bias based on price and other un-related backwards idea's like where the horn is made at to blame for some of the stuff that is going on in this market!

If you donot like something you can either do somethign about it like voting with your wallet, contacting OEM's to get someone else to make what you want, building something yourself or you can waste your time and complain and cry about it on a forum where no one has the power to help you!

I have tried a number of times to rally some guys together to have an emailing campaign or calling campaign to get some of these OEM's to change things and to build something we want at a price point that makes sense! No one ever wants to join in though! Plenty of complaining and such or excuse's for why things are the way they are etc...... I have seen large OEM's in the auto world turn on a dime when enough demand was present. Porsche just decided to build a green hybrid electric spider GT based on 2000 pre-order promises not a lot.....

If you want things to change you have to take an active role! The best grass roots efforts are always coordinated and focused so you have one massively loud voice instead of 10,000 whispers in different directions! I make request's all the time usualy in protest at my kids schools and 3 out 4 times I get what I want which is always in the best interest of the kids! I wanted chemistry tutor to be made available and one was on short notice at the schools cost! If enough people speak with the same voice people listen!
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
chuck in ny
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 3597
Location: New York

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he seems to be on the level and deliver a good product.
my question about these horns... are they really scientifically designed or more efficient or whatever it is quality they are supposed to have? seem to be a bunch of happy campers who have them anyway.. chuck
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
forrest
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 695
Location: St Louis MO

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
Well just a question.....


You've never bought one of these horns, played one of these horns, or been in the situation of the poster, have you, Kirk? Yet you've managed to write over a thousand words about the subject in 2 posts to this thread.

Best of luck, dbleC. I hope it turns out well for you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nyctrumpeter
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1992
Location: New York City

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jgadvert wrote:
You read this stuff on an internet site where a person has been waiting more than 9 months for delivery of a horn.

Far beyond freakin ridiculous.


Absolutly!!! 9 months, do you know how many horns Yamaha or Kanstul can make in that time, yeah many more. It wouldn't be worth it to me to wait that long especially if I don't know how it will play. And all my money is tied up in it, I don't think so. I would have re-thoughtout that decision on a harrelson horn, not worth it to me. As far as Monette goes, and I don't play his horns, his horns are really worth the wait time. Look at his product, its amazing. Harrelson's can't compare and I have played both. My advice to folks out there, learn from this and buy an artist model or custom production line horn ie Yamaha or kanstul or go vintage. You will be alot happier.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I posted above, I have no problem with waiting, as long as the builder tells me how long the wait is going to be up front. By now, after making a number of horns, an approximation should be do-able. And, communication with updates about progress seems essential. If I decide the waiting time is worth it, then I proceed with the sale. If updates are available I wait for my horn enthusiastically. If the horn is completed at about the time it was supposed to be, I'm thrilled. If a delay occurred and I was notified and told when the horn would be completed, I'm still OK. However, if I pay $$ and have no completion date and there is no communication (even if I email and request a progress report) then I'm not a happy camper. Period. This would apply to any purchase from any maker of any product, anywhere, anytime.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Retlaw
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 3263
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Beating a dead horse. Reply with quote

supportlivejazz wrote:
dbleC wrote:
I know this is a tired subject but...

My dad bought a Bravura [horn intended for me] and paid for it on Jan 11. Still don't have any clue when it will be delivered. Attempts at communication are futile. The website shows a completion date of 8/23. I think we are into October, right?! This is the third or fourth completion date so far. Terrible experience.

Sorry, wanted to vent!
I'd have no problem with waiting... but I should know how long the wait will be before I sign the check. That would frost my butt pretty good and I'd shy away from making a commitment if the maker wasn't able to commit on his end. Hell even (house) builders have completion dates or expected construction times and deadlines. It's not unreasonable to expect.


I think you make a very valid point..... I think it would help Jason's business no end if he were able to give a date and stay pretty close to it... Monette used to take about a year and I have heard it is much longer...... 18 months has been bandied around....anyone no for sure?

Some people can wait some can't.... I am one who really struggles on that front....in fact I asked my friend every week what the latest was on his Bravura....man you should see him treasure it now. He is a very good player and he sounds even better.

I have another friend having a new house built..... I keep asking him.. "Is it finished yet"....he has said "another month" about three times. It is not a prefab house and the end result will be a unique house by the sea that is really special.....worth the wait?

Forrest I am surprised you counted the Captains words.... I must admit we all have a right to say something on waiting....otherwise the usual troop who parade on the Jason threads would have no say either.... they always say the same thing and have not bought a horn from him either....

There has been enough posted over the last year for people to make a good decision about waiting for these horns.... can't wait? Don't buy....

Putting pressure on Jason through a thread on TH will either yield nothing but name calling or a rushed product or other peoples rushed products.....(we all know the result of that...don't we! ) or a cue jump which pushed some other poor soul down the line.

It would seem that Jason is not out there to only build horns....he gets gigs and no doubt has other interests... there can be two points of views on this....either he focuses on building horns and drops the other stuff or he drops building horns and enjoys being a musician.... I know which choice I would have him make.... but then I like "Artists"......who build horns.

The last comment was a "troll"...... wonder how long it will take for a bite?

Walter
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maarten van Weverwijk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 3377

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:53 am    Post subject: Re: Beating a dead horse. Reply with quote

dbleC wrote:
...This is the third or fourth completion date so far. Terrible experience...

Everyone is willing to wait for months or even years as long as the AGREED delivery time is not being postponed SEVERAL times. It's bad business that can't be justified by any means, especially after having paid the full amount.
That's all there is to it, great instrument made by a great player or not.

MvW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
65strad
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Posts: 979
Location: Toms River, New Jersey

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Beating a dead horse. Reply with quote

Maarten van Weverwijk wrote:
dbleC wrote:
...This is the third or fourth completion date so far. Terrible experience...

Everyone is willing to wait for months or even years as long as the AGREED delivery time is not being postponed SEVERAL times. It's bad business that can't be justified by any means, especially after having paid the full amount.
That's all there is to it, great instrument made by a great player or not.

MvW.


+1
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Retlaw
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 3263
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

+2


Walter
_________________
"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ohiotpt
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 987

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
If you donot like something you can either do somethign about it like voting with your wallet, contacting OEM's to get someone else to make what you want, building something yourself or you can waste your time and complain and cry about it on a forum where no one has the power to help you!

I have tried a number of times to rally some guys together to have an emailing campaign or calling campaign to get some of these OEM's to change things and to build something we want at a price point that makes sense! No one ever wants to join in though! Plenty of complaining and such or excuse's for why things are the way they are etc...... I have seen large OEM's in the auto world turn on a dime when enough demand was present. Porsche just decided to build a green hybrid electric spider GT based on 2000 pre-order promises not a lot.....

Psst...to vote with your wallet, you actually have to buy something.
Cash beats e-mail, everytime.
Cash beats posts, everytime.
This is not renewing Star Trek, where the consumer and producer are financially de-linked. These products are available for purchase directly. You want then to build more, then LAY YOUR MONEY DOWN.
Don't you think it's criminal to bother these companies that are trying to make a living with wasteful e-mails and phone calls?
Isn't this tough enough economic times without harassment from Capt.Kirk? Remember the prime directive.

However getting back to the OP, and to avoid 30 pages more, here's some links which probably covers everyone's opinion (other then the need for dylithium crystal bells).
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96602
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93672
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93782

To help you with your current concerns, maybe an option would be to schedule a consultation with this fellow through the TH marketplace:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=25193&s=Consultation-w--Jason-Harrelson-of-Harrelson-Trumpets

In that listing it advises:
Quote:
"Want to know more about Harrelson Trumpets and how we can build you a horn custom built to improve your performance? Schedule a consultation with Jason Harrelson today and he will personally explain more about how he can help you!"
(Emphais added)

_________________
-fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Florida Treasure Coast area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757

PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ohiotpt wrote:

To help you with your current concerns, maybe an option would be to schedule a consultation with this fellow through the TH marketplace:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=25193&s=Consultation-w--Jason-Harrelson-of-Harrelson-Trumpets

In that listing it advises:
Quote:
"Want to know more about Harrelson Trumpets and how we can build you a horn custom built to improve your performance? Schedule a consultation with Jason Harrelson today and he will personally explain more about how he can help you!"
(Emphais added)


The problem as I see is that he seems enthusiastic about explanations and information before the purchase is made and a payment is sent. However, according to this OP and others, he seems reluctant to communicate and unable to give the same attention to folks who have committed to a purchase. That's where the conflicts arise. I would be even more bothered if I was able to get a quick email response as a potential customer, knowing the history of folks who have made a financial commitment and been unable to get responses to emails.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet






"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group