Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:46 am Post subject: Why aren't .438 bores still being manufactured?
I can't believe how easy the double C is on my Conn 10A. It's a .438 bore and after the Jim Becker alignment it plays incredibly open but rocks above high C. I don't feel like the horn slots on quick passages nearly as well as my modern horns and the intonation is suspect on this Conn but do you guys think a modern .438 bore horn would have popularity again?
I've tried the Kanstul Mariachi and found it a decent horn.
Maybe this has been covered before but I'd love to hear the experts (Becker, Tony Scodwell, etc) chime in on why they're just not more SMALL bore horns.
Trent wrote: I don't feel like the horn slots on quick passages nearly as well as my modern horns ....
---------------------------------------------
Exactly. I've been using a Connstellation for about 2 months... trying to get the notes to lock in on fast passages above the staff. I've been doing extended Clark studies, and have been quite methodical about using the metronome... increasing gradually every week. The notes just won't lock in on quicker tempos. It sounds "smeary" and sloppy. I go to the Strad and it's just fine. Don't get me wrong.. I LOVE this horn, but I feel it's time to go back to my Strad.
Perhaps a valve alignment would help, but I don't want to throw the money on this horn if it's not going to solve the problem. I've considered the Mariachi, but its yellow brass bell would not have the character of the original Connstellation. _________________ TA
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Why aren't .438 bores still being manufactured?
TrentAustin wrote:
I can't believe how easy the double C is on my Conn 10A. It's a .438 bore and after the Jim Becker alignment it plays incredibly open but rocks above high C. I don't feel like the horn slots on quick passages nearly as well as my modern horns and the intonation is suspect on this Conn but do you guys think a modern .438 bore horn would have popularity again?
I've tried the Kanstul Mariachi and found it a decent horn.
Maybe this has been covered before but I'd love to hear the experts (Becker, Tony Scodwell, etc) chime in on why they're just not more SMALL bore horns.
Pros/Cons?
Cheers,
T
Trent, Give me a call me to arrange an appointment to have your mpc receiver gap measured and a valve seal test. I would expect to find a soultion or solutions to your slotting problems by making adjustments to one or both.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
www.osmun.com
Joined: 22 Feb 2005 Posts: 819 Location: sunny Sarasota, FL
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: 6B
Jim and Trent,
Schedule the appointment after I ship Jim my new mint 1965 6B. It needs to come up for a Jim Becker alignment anyway, so if we time it right you'll have a very interesting data point for comparison. It's NOS, as pristine as I've ever seen a 45 year old horn. Given how it already plays, I can't imagine how it'll be after a PVA!
(Jim, put me on the dance card for the PVA and let me know when I should ship...)
Bill _________________ 6340S, Connstellation 36B, 38B, 38A, and 28A, Couesnon flugel, Blackburn C, Kanstul/Besson 920 picc, and a HUGE pile of Messina Covers gig bags
I think the bore size question is, like many things in music, the consequence of dogma as much as it is reasoned thought. Early horns with small bores were previously very popular because they provided an ease of range and endurance that was appreciated, and they had a sound that was characteristically their own. Adolf Herseth played a 22B in the Chicago Symphony....a horn originally with with a very small bore (.438 or .445 I think) Many manufactures built small bore horns off the Besson template for years focusing on different bell signs not larger bores.
As rotary horns were popularized in areas of Europe so was the sound. And influential players and stick waivers came to expect this sound. Manufactures responded by increasing bore sizes to at least in part emulate this broader sounding tone. If you are going to play a B flat instead of a C you may as well obtain maximum sound benefit of the B flat over the C. This new wave of larger bore horns were probably never easier to play, and probably never sounded better in a definable way (eye of the beholder type thing) but was a response to dogmatic expectations. So an evolution of sorts took place. And maybe with C trumpets in such common use perhaps there is even less of a driving force to re-manufacture horns with a small bore?
I think the jazz genre was less impacted. Freddy Hubbard played a Conn 8B with a very small bore and sounded awesome. But he didn't need to cater to the dogmatic whims of the legit music world. But horn manufactures do.
P.S. If I could play a double C on any horn.....that's the one I would be playing _________________ Larry Pfeifer
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:50 am Post subject:
pfeifela wrote:
As rotary horns were popularized in areas of Europe so was the sound. And influential players and stick waivers came to expect this sound. Manufactures responded by increasing bore sizes to at least in part emulate this broader sounding tone. If you are going to play a B flat instead of a C you may as well obtain maximum sound benefit of the B flat over the C. This new wave of larger bore horns were probably never easier to play, and probably never sounded better in a definable way (eye of the beholder type thing) but was a response to dogmatic expectations. So an evolution of sorts took place. And maybe with C trumpets in such common use perhaps there is even less of a driving force to re-manufacture horns with a small bore?
I think the jazz genre was less impacted. Freddy Hubbard played a Conn 8B with a very small bore and sounded awesome. But he didn't need to cater to the dogmatic whims of the legit music world. But horn manufactures do.
I don't think you can attribute this change to the popularizing of rotary valved instruments in Europe since they are what have always been used in the countries where they are used, and, as such, weren't popularized during the 20th century.
Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, large bore, or extremely large bore Bbs are rarely played by orchestral players, but are quite commonly played by lead players. The Wild Thing comes to mind.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2642 Location: vista ca
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:04 pm Post subject:
yeah there is something wrong if it doesn't slot on fast passages.
the smaller bore is better for slotting fast slurs up high. Usually!
I'll bet your 10b has both a seal problem (leaking valves or seams) AND the the gap is too small. That 10b pipe wants to have a gap of about more than .150+(a little bigger than normal) because the the wall thickness in the receiver is pretty thick. That makes sense with the GR formula too by the way.
Of course it depends on the thickness of the mouthpiece wall also. But most mouthpieces are in about the same ballpark that way.
Nothing slots fast passages like my 12/22b 438 bores. 38B similar to your 10b is good that way too.
I would say that there is a slight feeling of not being able to flow as much air in the middle register on a small bore. The way most people learn to play now is based on an "air concept" of flowing air, which does lots of good things to your playing especially for a kid or up and comer. Small bores take more of a "blow against" concept. That is great for the upper register but it can get wierd playing things like concone studies.
It also can be harder to go from very soft to very loud. Almost like there is two modes on a small bore. Big sound and small sound, both of which work great. morphing between them is different on a small bore (at least Conn) than a ML or large bore.
Also, the very first minute or two that someone picks up a small bore, it feels bad to them. I've seen that so many times, because the air flow feel is not the same. That air flow feel is what most players base all of their accuracy and musicality etc on. It's amazing how bad someone can play the first 3 minutes, and then get used to it and start sounding good, maybe even liking it:)
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject:
I know, Trent, that you were awaiting a Scodwell, or one of that ilk, but I echo your remarks re: lack of popularity of smaller bore horns. I believe if you planted Conn 22b's or 38B's on the stand in front of many of the big bands I frequent, you'd get some high marks. Many use small/med bore horns now, but those who don't might make a switch once enlightened. And my 22b slots just fine.
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: Why aren't .438 bores still being manufactured?
James Becker wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
I can't believe how easy the double C is on my Conn 10A. It's a .438 bore and after the Jim Becker alignment it plays incredibly open but rocks above high C. I don't feel like the horn slots on quick passages nearly as well as my modern horns and the intonation is suspect on this Conn but do you guys think a modern .438 bore horn would have popularity again?
I've tried the Kanstul Mariachi and found it a decent horn.
Maybe this has been covered before but I'd love to hear the experts (Becker, Tony Scodwell, etc) chime in on why they're just not more SMALL bore horns.
Pros/Cons?
Cheers,
T
Trent, Give me a call me to arrange an appointment to have your mpc receiver gap measured and a valve seal test. I would expect to find a soultion or solutions to your slotting problems by making adjustments to one or both.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
www.osmun.com
Hey Jim!
Thanks for chiming in. I know you work on a ton of horns but you have done a PVA on this one as well as custom short-shanked a Warburton mouthpiece to properly fit the gap of the weird Conn Cornet receivers.
I guess the only thing left is to do a valve rebuild.
I'm spoiled as my Shires Bb and C slot better than any other horn I've owned but this double C on the Conn is insane. I actually sound like a lead player on this horn. Just don't tell anyone... oh wait, I gotta play lead tonight in Providence. Ouch.
I'm enjoying this thread and I'm going to have to beg the folks at Shires to make me a .438 bore horn!
As rotary horns were popularized in areas of Europe so was the sound. And influential players and stick waivers came to expect this sound. Manufactures responded by increasing bore sizes to at least in part emulate this broader sounding tone. If you are going to play a B flat instead of a C you may as well obtain maximum sound benefit of the B flat over the C. This new wave of larger bore horns were probably never easier to play, and probably never sounded better in a definable way (eye of the beholder type thing) but was a response to dogmatic expectations. So an evolution of sorts took place. And maybe with C trumpets in such common use perhaps there is even less of a driving force to re-manufacture horns with a small bore?
I think the jazz genre was less impacted. Freddy Hubbard played a Conn 8B with a very small bore and sounded awesome. But he didn't need to cater to the dogmatic whims of the legit music world. But horn manufactures do.
I don't think you can attribute this change to the popularizing of rotary valved instruments in Europe since they are what have always been used in the countries where they are used, and, as such, weren't popularized during the 20th century.
Additionally, if I'm not mistaken, large bore, or extremely large bore Bbs are rarely played by orchestral players, but are quite commonly played by lead players. The Wild Thing comes to mind.
Yes, rotary horns were always used. But the influence of Germans (and their use of rotary horns) is my point.
"In most major cities Germans took the lead in creating a musical culture, with popular bands, singing societies, operas and symphonic orchestras."(Philip V. Bohlman and Otto Holzapfel, eds. Land without Nightingales: Music in the Making of German-America. (U. of Wisconsin Press, 2002)
"A steady influx of German-born conductors, including Arthur Nikisch and Karl Muck, spurred the reception of German music in the United States, while German musicians seized on Victorian Americans' growing concern with 'emotion.' The performance of pieces such as Beethoven's 'Ninth Symphony' established German serious music as the superior language of feeling, filling audiences with awe for the superiority not just of German art but of Germany in general - precisely the respect for German greatness and emotionalism that William II wanted to convey." Annette R. Hofmann, "Transformation and Americanization: The American Turners and Their New Identity," International Journal of the History of Sport 2002 19(1): 91-118
I don't claim to have any special insight into this topic. I just provided the quotes to illustrate my point that horn manufactures were responding to market demand in the evolution of bore size. They didn't change bore size on a whim. And I tried to provide the best speculation as to the source of that demand.........which I believe may have been a German sound concept forged by rotary horns. Again, it is just speculation, but I think it addresses the question from the OP.
As always, I respect you differing opinion. But aside from disagreeing with my speculation, you have not provided any insight of your own regarding the OP's question. _________________ Larry Pfeifer
I think it has more to do with marketing then anything else. Look at what the Chinese choose to copy and that tells you what has been pushed and preached by the educational system for the most part. ML bore of .459-.460, monel valves, double tuning slide brace etc.............So I think we are a victium of our own lack of voice when it comes to industry in general. That and often the common guy has no voice .....When was the last time you say "The COmmon Joe" horn being pushed! It is always someone famious either helping to design the horn or at the very least giving his opinion on various prototypes.....Jupiter has come out with a smaller bore proffessional model just recently that might well be what you are looking for.
I think that if you go back far enough into the past before mikes and amplification was common and you see a lot of smaller bore jazz horns. In fact Besson,Bach,Conn and a bunch of others all had some really popular smaller bore trumpets. Then their was a huge shake up with in the USA as to what was "our" sound and some really powerful players where able to do some incredible things with some rather large bore trumpets by their time period. This ushered in a change all the way around and you say guys like Vincent Bach changing course and going to larger .459 and .460 bores......Every once in a while you would even see a .468 or larger model come along.
I do not think many Jazz artists and big band guys could play 8-14 hours a day 6-7 days a week in an unamp'ed environment with what we typicaly see today which is normaly .459 or larger bore horns. One of my favorite horns is a Holton pea shooter from 1946 made out of German Silver. I can not push it to FFF as well as a more modern horn and it requires you to lip the notes so some are going to be sharp or flat since you can not lip much more then 15 cents up or down but it is an easy horn to play. You can play it all day and not feel wasted. It works just fine above the staff and yes the responce is a tad slower and the slotting is a tad loser then what we like today. It tends to get bright if I push it too hard.....My point though is that if I had to play for a living all day and most of the night it is the ideal horn. I think bore is like all things trumpet a give and take! I think the smaller bore horns of yesterday where popular because of how the musicians of the day used their trumpets or their work habits specificly.
In fact one of the things most old recording artist's could do that few today can do is record a song in a continious fashhion and in one take! Today we do this track first, then the back ground fill then any over dubing then the second main track etc..........Then the engineer puts it all together in the form of a song. We do not use our tools the same way today.In fact I do not know too many musicians that can play a full day like at an Amusment park then go grab dinner and play all night at a club etc......
I think that what is popular is what is driving sales and this is based on what we have been told since middle school. Since Bach is the segment leader in sales they are the one everyone copies from designs to marketing.If you hear the same message often enough one will belive it no matter if it is relavant. I think you are making an excellent point based on your experince and perception instead of just pulling the party line! It will be intersting to see if you can make any head way in this department! I think it is an excellent topic for discussion. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday!
Joined: 30 Sep 2009 Posts: 365 Location: North of Detroit
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:27 pm Post subject:
I had the opportunity to visit Germany some years ago. We attended the Stuttgart ballet's perfomance of Romeo and Juliet, did a lot of touristy castle visits, and of course, drank our fair share of great German Bier. Germany is awesome, but there is one thing I didn't like...
The Germans live there.
Trent,
What did you like/dislike about the Kanstul 991?
Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1668 Location: West Medford, MA
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:34 pm Post subject:
Trent - out of dumb luck and more dumb luck I got a 28A a few years ago. Jumped on a BIN on ebay and the horn is in good shape, too. Jim over at Osmun's recently did a wonderful alignment job (it was WAY out) and I've been playing it lots, and lots better, since.
Jim did mention that it is common for these valves to work freer when using Hetman's classic valve oil, due to the looser tolerances originally spec'd in production. If that oil helps cover the same base as what he refers to as valve seal, then great, but I'd like to know more.
While I'm not up in the stratosphere yet, I would like to hear what this here Connstellation cornet can do. Shoot me a PM & if possible I'll arrange for you to try it out when you get over to Forest Street. _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:36 pm Post subject:
I'm not sure where the large bore horn fits in this curiousness about the .438s, except that it is likely a valid extrapolation. What I have read about folk's experiences with Wild Things and other LBs is that they don't blend well in sections with ML bore horns. (How they'd blend in a section full of LBs is a moot curiosity).
I am not an orchestral player (nor could I be), but I have found with both my 8310Z which is overall a smaller bore horn, and my 12B, is that they are a bit more yielding up top. How they slot seems to be very mouthpiece dependent.
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: Why aren't .438 bores still being manufactured?
I've been playing a Kanstul "Mariachi" for about 9 years now and absolutely love it!!!! Over that 9 year period MANY horns have come and gone (Schilkes, Yamaha, Taylors, Eclipses, etc.) and this is the ONLY horn that has survived!! There is just something special about this horn. I had it PVA'd by Wayne Tanabe shortly after I purchased it and about 3 years ago I had Rich Ita strip it down to raw brass. The horn can bark with the best or can be dark and mellow (think Chet Baker) all within a moments notice. I have yet to find a commercial style/gig that I didn't feel at home on it. Intonation is incredible and the horn is balanced very well in my hands. One of the things that seperates it from all the others I've owned is that it is NOT mouthpiece sensitive...EVERYTHING I put in it seems to work and work WELL! Overall it is a real chameleon in every sense of the word. Did I say that I love this horn!!
The 8310Z is a .445 bore, and Schilke makes the B4, 6, and 7 and S42 at .450. _________________ Kanstul 1600
Kanstul 1510
Calicchio 1s/2
Selmer 24B Lightweight K-Mod
I took my Conn 10A last night to play lead at Bovi's with the fantastic John Allmark orchestra. It worked fairly well but I had a hard time getting the first attacks to really pop. The sound also got lost a bit in the section even though the guys around me said it sounded fine. That is one loud band and high energy playing.
I pulled out my Shires on the second set and everything was better. Absolutely everything.
I'm not sure where the large bore horn fits in this curiousness about the .438s, except that it is likely a valid extrapolation. What I have read about folk's experiences with Wild Things and other LBs is that they don't blend well in sections with ML bore horns. (How they'd blend in a section full of LBs is a moot curiosity).
I am not an orchestral player (nor could I be), but I have found with both my 8310Z which is overall a smaller bore horn, and my 12B, is that they are a bit more yielding up top. How they slot seems to be very mouthpiece dependent.
veery
Veery,
This is "WT Myth #1
Anyone who has an ear and can listen to those around them can blend using a Wild Thing trumpet. In fact, I have also read that a Wild Thing in the section can make the whole ensemble sound better. Hmm, which opinion is true?? I bet it depends on the player.
Now, one thing is for certain. The Wild Thing will project its tone more broadly (about a 160 degree full-tone pattern - I've tested it) and carry its sound farther than anything else out there, but blending with other well-played trumpets is not an issue.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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