Committee versus C7

Cadenza · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 243

It's really interesting to see the substantial prices that Committees command these days.

The Lawler C7, as I understand, possesses many of the properties of the Committee and it's a modern horn. While it isn't cheap, these horns often go for less than Committees do.

So --- why is it that so many people pay a LOT for a Committee instead of getting a modern C7?

silverhorace · Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject:

They just aren't really the same. I have owned both - the C7 is a great horn, wonderfully built, excellent sound and response, great intonation. In some ways, it is a better and more versatile instrument than a Martin Committee. They may be similar, but the C7 is not the same thing. They are different enough that only a Committee is a Committee. I have never found a horn that was all that similar to a vintage Committee. The C7 may be the closest thing out there, but it just isn't a Committee.

It lacks a lot of the playing characteristics (which may or may not be a good thing) slotting, blow, feel, and most importantly the sound. Playing them next to each other, they don't sound a like. (Similar, but not the same). The C7 is very "committee-like", but it's not a Committee. Period. For some people, only a Martin Committee will do.

Retlaw · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:11 am Post subject:

Great answer silverhorace.... and from experience.

Walter
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supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

[quote="silverhorace" I have never found a horn that was all that similar to a vintage Committee.

It lacks a lot of the playing characteristics (which may or may not be a good thing) slotting, blow, feel, and most importantly the sound. Playing them next to each other, they don't sound a like. (Similar, but not the same). The C7 is very "committee-like", but it's not a Committee. Period. For some people, only a Martin Committee will do.[/quote]

Exactly my feelings. I never claim that the vintage Committee is "better than" or "the best". But I have purchased and played about every horn that my favorite jazz players from the late 40s to the 70s played so I could see for myself why they chose that particular horn and how that horn contributed to their sound. In the process, there is one thing that is absolutely clear to me. No horn sounds or plays like the Martin Committees made from the 40s to the 60s.
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Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:05 am Post subject:

shofarguy · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:32 am Post subject:

Great answers. I recently got to play Ed Mann's Committee. It's the only one I've ever played. Ed's response was that I sounded best on it compared to the other trumpets we were sampling that day, and that there was "magic goin' on" or something to that effect.

I wish I could have heard it to know what he was talking about! In the room where we were, I usually can get a pretty good idea of the sound, but there were three of us playing and it was kind of noisy. There was a slight sense of hurry, too. I was using my TCC-5 mouthpiece which gives me a wonderfully rich tone, but feeds back a sort of "plugged nose" effect.

So, how would you describe this "magic"? How much of it is mindset, or expectation? "silverhorace" said that "nothing plays or sounds like a Committee." My impression was it played similar to my Benge 5X, but sounded different.

The more I hear others play the Benge, the more I realize it also has a unique sound, strong and authoritative. The only time I've ever heard someone play a Committee in performance, it sounded kind of dead. A university student was playing it in a jazz combo and it fit there, but when the jazz band took over and he jumped up to 3rd or 4th book, it was out of place and, frankly, compromised the sound of the whole section.

I know it could just have been that player, so I'm asking those who know this horn well to tell me what exactly is the "magic"? In answer to the obligatory "You mean you can't hear it?" question, the answer is, "No, not yet." Especially from the player's (my) standpoint. I'm not saying it isn't there, btw.

Also, unless you've played a good Benge 5X, please don't try to say that it plays nothing like a Committee. The differences are far fewer and much more subtle than the similarities and I'm separating the sound (feedback) from the playability in my comments.

I am in no way trying to discredit the Martin Committee or those of you who love it. I have simply learned that what I hear as a player and what the audience hears can be very different things, so before I get emotionally (I have been known to do that, if you can believe it!) or financially involved, I need some more feedback.

Brian
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supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:45 am Post subject:

supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

To Shofarguy...

Two things come to mind for me as far as the "magic". First the sound I get with the mouthpiece I use and the way I blow is more pleasing to ME than with any other horn I have owned or own. My 60s Strad is pretty nice and plays very fat and dark... but it's not the same.

Second, in the "magic" category is my amazement that when I listen to the MANY players who I love listening to, who recorded with a Committee, I am absolutely dazzled by the many ways a Committee can sound depending on the player and his choice of mps and technique. It reminds me of the huge variation in sound that all the great blues players got out of that little Hohner Marine Band harp. I mean listen to Diz, then Chet, then Roy, then Kenny, then Lee, then Maynard... then Miles... and that's nowhere near all of the players who used the Committee regularly. It's quite the range of sound produced from the same model I think.

Meanwhile, if I can find a vintage Benge 5 bell at a price that makes sense to me (need to be able to resell if I don't like it), I'll grab it just to see.

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1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet

"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn."

B_Starry · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:56 am Post subject:

Robert, Can you share with us your observations on how a typical Committee may differ from a typical Conn 28A, in terms of sound and its playing characteristics?
thanks,
- Brian
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Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:33 am Post subject:

slantws · Regular Member Joined: 15 Dec 2010 Posts: 38

Hello, In regards to this discussion, I have a 1941 Martin Handcraft Committee. Would you say that the sound the Handcraft Committee is similar or the same as that of the later Committees? What are some of the mouthpieces used on Committees to keep that dark sound?
Thanks.

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1941 Martin HC Committee
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1947 Buescher 205
1952 Getzen Super Deluxe
1970s CG Benge
1980s CG Selmer (2)
2013 Schilke Handcraft HC2
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AverageJoe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:08 am Post subject:

veery715 · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:18 am Post subject:

Robert,

Whle I most certainly understand why you are not being more forthcoming, your circumspect posts only serve to really pique my curiosity, and I am sure you know that.

It's one thing to have a secret, and another to tout its possession.

V.
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Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:23 am Post subject:

Retlaw · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:27 am Post subject:

In a way some "magic" is just an unexplained reality..... one minute the card is there and then it vanishes...... the how's and why's could be explained by the "magician" but then the "magic" evaporates. Technically "magic" is not necessarily the right word...... I think there is something "special" with these horns....and quite often is appreciated more by an uninitiated audience...

I sold my medium bore Committee to a guy who immediately had a sound reminiscent of Chet Baker. His style of play has always been that but on all his other horns he had that certain something missing that would make the hairs on the back of my neck stand. It was there on the Committee ..... he could not hear it from the other side of the bell.

The Committee is not necessarily better than other horns....it is just different...I have listened to bands who play night after night and then one night and in a way you can't explain...the "magic" happens ...I suppose it could be analysed but sometimes it is more fun just to accept it...with the Committees I think the "magic" happens more often for the audience.... and I think that is why there is such a long list of jazzers like Diz...Miles...Chet....who played them.

Some horns from the same manufacturer are more special than others....

I once played an old King in a trumpet shop...it came from the cheap end of the market....everybody in the shop turned around and said "What was that?!!!"... I should have bought it.... but I was listening with my eyes....

Now here is the rub..... we can kid ourselves that we sound better on one horn over others....... but it will be experienced trumpet buddies who know the reality.... my close trumpet buddy who really knows my sound in church says that I sound best on my Taylor with my Artisan a close second.....even over my large bore Committee which I think shows that they are not the only show in town....but get in a jazz environment and the Harrelson and Committee come alive.....do they sound alike? No..... but they both work........"horses for courses"....

Walter

Walter
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"Life is short....play nice."

Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:32 am Post subject:

intrepidpooch · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:36 am Post subject:

I've owned a Lawler C7 with a gold brass bell made in 12/08 and also a 1951 Committee and now own a 1950 Committee Deluxe. My Lawler played and sounded way different than the Martin, not a bad thing but just different. However, I just played a Lawler C7 Deluxe made last year with his new M3 bell and to be honest, his new C7 bells make the horns play and sound much, much closer to the real thing. Granted, the new C7 I tried was a ML (.460) step bore as opposed to the M (.451) step bore of the old Martins so the blow was different, but his new M3 bell has definitely greatly improved the authenticity of sound--the floral engraving was gorgeous too. In earlier years the C7s definitely didn't look or sound anything like the real thing but as of late, Roy has really come as close as I think possible to trying to recreate the Committee with his new model. If he would start making them with the trombone style water keys, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference visually!
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Robert Rowe · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:41 am Post subject:

bg · Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:44 am Post subject:

Help me out here, guys... I know this is not a new observation, but I'd just appreciate the insight of the folks who use a Committee on a regular basis.

I'm a Martin devotee. I've played the Handcraft Imperial on my last 5 solo recordings, etc.

I just picked up a nice Deluxe Committee, a really late one, Wurlitzer era, I'm sure. It plays like a dream, as far as blow, sound, etc. It's a little more resistant than the Handcraft horns I am used to, ( I have 3 of them, and also sometimes mess with a Dansant and a Superlative model), but I like that !

The question is about the intonation. Does one get "used" to these slots after a while? I can not, for the life of me, get the G in the staff low enough. Actually, it feels like Everything from low E through middle B flat is high, and everything above it is low.

I can play like crazy on this horn, but the intonation thing has got me puzzled.
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