Rust Inside New Horn?

cv1gold · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: Rust Inside New Horn?

Hi all, I purchased a new Conn Vintage 1, rose brass, gold plate around Sep 2009. All was good until I started having 1st valve problems this Dec. Took the horn in for a chem clean and they spotted rust on the valve. The horn was brite-dipped and the valve was gently lapped. Long story short, a couple of trips, more baths, more lapping and the rust keeps coming back. They also noted pitting on the horn. Over 40 yrs and probably 20 horns, I've never encountered this issue. No diet changes recently (although needed, lol).

First question, has anyone had the same problem and how was it solved?

Second, has anyone had issues with Conn V 1's?

Thirdly, The store suggestd a sonic cleaning. Any experience with that?

Thanks

lmf · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject:

No warranty from the Conn through the music store where you bought the horn as a first time owner?

david mickley · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject:

is the rust on the part of the piston that comes in contact with valve body or is it on the part where the spring is located? Quit lapping the valve, all you are doing is prematurely wearing out your valves and looking for a valve re build long before you should have to. if the rust is on the part of the piston that holds the spring "Forget about it". Really can't see rust on the piston where it contacts the valve body, maybe dis-coloration but not rust. I would try a different shop.
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cv1gold · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:22 pm Post subject:

David - rust is on the valve itself, right at the opening to the slide. In other words, looking at the valve, I can see exactly where slides line up.

Conn has a 5 yr warranty. I will likely contact them, pending conversation online here and with a couple other instrument techs, Baldwin Wong at Sac State and Dick Ackright in Oakland.

forrest · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject:

Most all of the parts on a horn are brass. Brass doesn't rust.

I can imagine rouge from polishing the horn when built, but not "rust".

VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject:

I'm confused by the term "rust". Is it true iron oxide or just random red stuff?

Tom
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cv1gold · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject:

The shop called it rust. When "wet" it's a sort of watery-yellowish color. When the valve is wiped down, it indeed looks a bit rust colored. Weird, I've owned 3 CG Benges, a 3x Plus, Benge Flugel, Yamaha Flugel, Wild Thing, Yamaha Tpt, Puje, 2 Schilkes, a Mt Vernon Bach and this has never happened. I was the first owner of all the above. It's never happened to any of my used horns either.

VetPsychWars · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject:

Please tell me your experiences scrubbing out and what you used to scrub it out?

Tom
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1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1

JonathanM · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject:

I'd definitely encourage you to have the manufacturer replace the bad parts. It would be my guess, although it is just a guess, that even on new model horns some old parts, like valve casings or valves, may be used.

All I can think is that old parts were used that had been stored improperly enough to allow corrosion to begin. That would not be your problem and I'd think the manufacturer could remedy this easily: Replace the valve casing and/or valves. But I wouldn't incur further expense, concern or wear on your horn by trying to address the problem through less than manufacturer replacement of the necessary parts.

Just my .02. Best wishes - and let us know what happens.
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Cornet: Olds Recording & Super

KansasTrumpet · Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject:

Have someone else look at the horn.
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lmf · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:29 am Post subject:

What about the warranty? Shouldn't Conn be notified that you are not happy with the new horn?

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:22 am Post subject:

I too would go first to Conn for the warranty. But now that the valves have been lapped a couple of times it is probably too late for that.

You mention Dick Akright. If you have gotten advice from him, then follow it.

I am assuming it wasn't Dick's shop that did the previous work.

Craig Swartz · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:27 am Post subject:

Send it back to Conn, by the time you have a bunch of other people mess with it the warrantee will probably be voided, since you didn't send it to Conn first. Personally, I'd agree with them if they made that decision. What's the point of buying anything new if you don't first give the manufacturer a chance to make the product right if there is a problem?

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

Stop lapping the valve.....The only thing lapping can do is temp. remove the surface corrosion and long term will wear the valve out and the casing to the point that a new valve will not seal the bore with out being made over sized!

Second Monel and Nickel Silver are both alloys of copper and as such can corrode in spite of the lies the industry tells people about it not corroding!

Contact Conn and do not mention the repeated lapping. Tell them your tech keeps chemically cleaning the horn to get rid of the corrosion and it keeps coming back! I know it is a lie of omission but the lapping is not what started the problem it was just a poor choice with regards to trying to remove it past the first lapping. The first lapping would have made sense but when it came back the Tech should have had the sense to not repeat the lapping. If you do something and it does not produce the result you wanted you do not keep doing it that is insanity or stupidity take your pick! I do not blame you I blame your Tech! If you tell Conn that the valves have been lapped 5 times they will cancel your warranty in a made minute!

Either their is an impurity in the monel material that was used to build your valves or during the machining some impurities where in the machining abrasive and got into the monel material. Example: Bach when I started out making knives as a kid I made them mostly from carbon steel like 1095 spring steel. As I got into stainless steel I could not figure out why I was getting rust spots on my stainless steel knives. The problem was that I was using the same sanding and grinding media that I used on my carbon steel blades so when I did the stainless steel knives I was accidental embedding carbon steel particles on the surface of the stainless steel knives and that was what was causing the rust spots. The same thing can happen with any material. So all it would take is someone in house using the same media to make a jig or tool for production then use that same media on a monel piston and bam instant transfer to the monel. That is the most likely scenario for the monel to be contaminated not everyone thinks that far ahead and they prob. where just saving money by making some tooling in house. Just a thought though since most monel valve do not corrode like that under normal use when kept oiled.
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lipshurt · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:42 pm Post subject:

that's not rust
That is the brass from the casing actually plating itself onto the monel piston through the ion-isaton process, which takes electricity usually.

This happens a LOT with monel valves especially yamaha, even after they switch the alloy. most of the time it is just a stain that does affect the action. If it is affecting the action that valve probably has some extra clearance. Lapping will make the whole thing worse. By a lot.

The fix is to find a valve oil that prevents this. usually synthetics works better at preventing it. Like yamaha synthetic. Proabably "Vintage is what you need now because of the lapping.

first you have to clean that casing and valve really good to get out all the lapping compound etc.

You very well may have already gotten a leaky valve situation from the lappings. Then you have to go to anderson for a nickel plate and refit. That is a great way to get your horns valves working and lasting as good as possible anyway.
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Matthew Anklan · Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject:

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

Good grief if this is transfer from the bronze liner's or brass if that is what they are using today that is terrible! That is a sign that the valves need to be redone it is not benign according to Getzen. Think about it why did they stop useing copper as the valve material so long ago? It is soft and grabby feeling and does not wear well. That is why they went to Nickel Silver wich is about 60% copper it is much harder, slicker and wears better. Monel is also a copper alloy. If you have metal transferring from the liners to the monel pistons then you will have very inconsistent valve feel and in time hangs and stoppages. On top of that that means your liners are wearing like made. True you want the liner to wear instead of the piston but not at that rate that is very alarming. The alloy that those liners are made of must be off because I have never seen a monel valve with copper or brass transfered to it in real life only online in photo's.

This is link to Getzen talking about pistons scroll down to the part that is bold and says "Corrosion" read that paragraph closely. Not my opinion rather Getzen and I dare say they are experts inthe area of trumpet pistons and materials! SO it is not just the crazy ranting of the Capt.

http://www.getzen.com/gazette/category/manufacturing/
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