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Calicchio 1s/2 Valve Questions


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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: Calicchio 1s/2 Valve Questions Reply with quote

TH:
I have a Calicchio 1s/2 Tulsa Bb Trumpet which has been the best thing that has happened to me of late in terms of both sound and feel. When I play correctly, this horn takes me to a new level in projection and sound presence.

The horn sounds great, but the valves are becoming an issue. The issue with the valves has always been extreme clankiness and loud-sounding valves, possibly as a result of the use of metal guides. The issue recently has been sticky valves if not pressed down completely straight. It also sticks in high humidity, where other Bachs and Yamahas (sadly) outperform the valve action of the Calicchio.

We all know Calicchio has had a history of valve problems when they were located in the LA area in the 90s, but has anyone had any John Duda-made trumpets that have the same issue? If you did, how did you solve the issue(s)? Was it a new valve casing/new valve set through a custom guy, or was it fixable with some magic lube or oil that works great for metal guide horns?

Calicchios sound amazing. I wish that the Calicchio's valves could outperform the valves on Bach and Yamaha trumpets, at the very least.

Am I alone on this?

Thank you all

Chad H

Edit: I have had the horn ultrasonically cleaned twice, and the issue of the valve stick remains. Even the slightest off-hit, and occasionally if it is pressed straight down, it will stick. The first and third valves do not have the same action, which leads me to believe that this action is unintended by the manufacturer. All three valves clank VERY loudly, and that has always been there.


Last edited by Chadwick on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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trumpaholic
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't valves supposed to be put straight down! Get a bottle of Tech-0il, the stuff that Charlie Schlueter endorses and I suspect your valve issue will be gone. This oil is amazing for valve issues and although at first it will seem to make the valves heavy, after a few weeks, they will be ultra smooth and fast. Email me at merlejenkins@sympatico.ca and I can provide you the contact information to get some from Dave Braun, the manufacture of this amazing oil.
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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpaholic wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't valves supposed to be put straight down!

Absolutely. But any off-hit of specifically the 2nd valve, and it sticks. I have had the horn for 11 months, and the issue has been off-and-on since then.

Quote:

Get a bottle of Tech-0il, the stuff that Charlie Schlueter endorses and I suspect your valve issue will be gone. This oil is amazing for valve issues and although at first it will seem to make the valves heavy, after a few weeks, they will be ultra smooth and fast. Email me at merlejenkins@sympatico.ca and I can provide you the contact information to get some from Dave Braun, the manufacture of this amazing oil.

I'll check it out. Thank you!
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mpo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you haven't already, take the horn to Prowinds and have them ultrasonicly clean the horn.

Start with a clean horn and then diagnose from there
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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpo wrote:
If you haven't already, take the horn to Prowinds and have them ultrasonicly clean the horn.

Start with a clean horn and then diagnose from there


I got an ultrasonic cleaning from them... twice. Didn't help the 2nd valve much at all.

Thanks for the suggestion though!
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2-5-1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.
I thought that I had valve issues with ever horn I've ever had until I realized it was me not pressing the valve straight down.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only valve issues with Calicchios have been related to the strength of the springs installed. If they're too soft, as the initial set of springs might be, you'll have the problems you're experiencing. Try a different set of springs before doing anything too exotic. I've found that the springs from Olds rebuild kits fit and work fine - just the right amount of "spring", and they cured my sticky valve problems. FWIW, I use either UltraPure or Hetman Light Piston (#1), and have nothing but great results from either.
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ALaschiver
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Calicchio valves Reply with quote

Send the horn to Duda or Dr. Valve.
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2-5-1 wrote:
If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.


Firstly, valves on some horns will hang, while others on different horns will not, even when the same or greater off-axis force is applied. This would seem to to be an indication of valve quality (or some mechanically-related factor, such as oil), not user error.

Second, EVERYONE applies SOME off-axis force on every stroke. If you have never had a problem with your valves, it can be ignored. On the other hand, if someone does have problems with valve hang-ups, he or she could be very sensitive to it, even though he might be applying less off-axis force than someone who has no problems. If this is the case it won't be helpful to simply advise that the valves need to be pressed straight down.

The OP said that "even the slightest off-hit" will cause a problem. It would be helpful to know if he experiences this on any other instrument. If not, the problem needs to be solved at the valves, not the fingers.
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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hup_d_dup wrote:

The OP said that "even the slightest off-hit" will cause a problem. It would be helpful to know if he experiences this on any other instrument. If not, the problem needs to be solved at the valves, not the fingers.


Nope, never had this problem before. I have a Bach with lightening-fast falves that I've just kept up for years, and had a PVA done on it in 2009. No other horn has had this sticking issue, or the clankiness issue (due to metal guides not being used much in new trumpets nowadays).
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before sending the horn away, buy some micro-fiber cloths (I use some billed as glass cleaners from Home Depot's cleaning isle) and swab the inside of the casings and the pistons well. If you have a valve cleaning rod, use that. If not, just twist the cloth into and through the casings. This will remove any residue that is left from manufacturing or the mating of the valves.

If Duda makes his valves tight fitting, you may just need more time on them. With some Kanstul valves, I've needed about 18 months of amateur-level playing time before they really came in and worked well. But, when they finally broke in, they were terrific. My WT trumpet has had tremendous valve action from the get-go, but both my Chicago and WT flugelhorn have needed time to really get good. In fact, the WT is not yet there.

Also, the oil you're using may evaporate more quickly than you think, or mix with water vapor and loose its slipperiness.

You may need to revise your hand position to overcome the sticking problem.

Brian
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2-5-1 wrote:
If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.
I thought that I had valve issues with ever horn I've ever had until I realized it was me not pressing the valve straight down.

I sincerely doubt that you or anybody can press the valve straight down.
Quote:
Send the horn to Duda

That's what I would do.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The clanking of your valves might be caused by a mis-fit in the piston spring cage. Flip Oakes discovered this in some of his horns and has devised a fix for it. You might call him and see if sending the horn to him would be beneficial. Perhaps he can perform his Total Enhancement and bring the horn up to its optimum condition.

Brian
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nowave
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Chadwick,

I also have a Tulsa 1s/2 -- it's a great horn, and mine has the best valve action of any horn I've owned (including Schilke, Yamaha, Selmer Paris, Olds, etc.). But it took me some time to get used to both the blow of the horn and a sort out a couple of valve issues. Upon receipt the springs were so stiff that I spent some time getting them softened up.

I also had a clanking valve that I eventually traced to the unique two-piece metal valve guides. I swapped out guides between the valves and somehow that solved the problem for me. Metal guides are always a bit louder than nylon, but maybe they help get that incredibly dense core the 1s/2 has.

My valves never stick even when I don't oil them enough... I'm using Hetman's #1.

Sometimes when the 2nd valve sticks it's because the 2nd slide gets slightly bent into the casing - which can happen in a trumpet case or by laying the horn down on its side... wonder if this might be the culprit?
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Chadwick
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nowave wrote:
Hi Chadwick,

I also have a Tulsa 1s/2 -- it's a great horn, and mine has the best valve action of any horn I've owned (including Schilke, Yamaha, Selmer Paris, Olds, etc.). But it took me some time to get used to both the blow of the horn and a sort out a couple of valve issues. Upon receipt the springs were so stiff that I spent some time getting them softened up.

I also had a clanking valve that I eventually traced to the unique two-piece metal valve guides. I swapped out guides between the valves and somehow that solved the problem for me. Metal guides are always a bit louder than nylon, but maybe they help get that incredibly dense core the 1s/2 has.

My valves never stick even when I don't oil them enough... I'm using Hetman's #1.

Sometimes when the 2nd valve sticks it's because the 2nd slide gets slightly bent into the casing - which can happen in a trumpet case or by laying the horn down on its side... wonder if this might be the culprit?


Wow thank you. Did you talk to John about the metal guides or did you take it to a horn shop?

As far as the 2nd valve goes, I don't rest the horn on the second valve slide. But my ProTec double horn case might be messing with the horn. Ill check that out!
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2-5-1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
2-5-1 wrote:
If I were you, I would just learn how to consistently press the 2nd valve straight down.
I thought that I had valve issues with ever horn I've ever had until I realized it was me not pressing the valve straight down.

I sincerely doubt that you or anybody can press the valve straight down.
Quote:
Send the horn to Duda

That's what I would do.


Doubt away homeslice.
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2-5-1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chadwick wrote:
nowave wrote:
Hi Chadwick,

I also have a Tulsa 1s/2 -- it's a great horn, and mine has the best valve action of any horn I've owned (including Schilke, Yamaha, Selmer Paris, Olds, etc.). But it took me some time to get used to both the blow of the horn and a sort out a couple of valve issues. Upon receipt the springs were so stiff that I spent some time getting them softened up.

I also had a clanking valve that I eventually traced to the unique two-piece metal valve guides. I swapped out guides between the valves and somehow that solved the problem for me. Metal guides are always a bit louder than nylon, but maybe they help get that incredibly dense core the 1s/2 has.

My valves never stick even when I don't oil them enough... I'm using Hetman's #1.


Sometimes when the 2nd valve sticks it's because the 2nd slide gets slightly bent into the casing - which can happen in a trumpet case or by laying the horn down on its side... wonder if this might be the culprit?


Wow thank you. Did you talk to John about the metal guides or did you take it to a horn shop?

As far as the 2nd valve goes, I don't rest the horn on the second valve slide. But my ProTec double horn case might be messing with the horn. Ill check that out!


That was the next thing I was going to ask; How does it rest in your case? Since you said that this doesn't happen with any other horns, maybe you should send it off. No reason to struggle with it if you don't have too.
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holeypants
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2-5-1 wrote:
Doubt away homeslice.


That's gotta be the first time those three words have ever been used together in that sequence - congratulations!
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Beto
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same problem with an older non DUDA horn and he worked with me to correct the problem.... sure he will do the same with you.... after several cleanings things didn't change... I sent it to Tulsa, Mr.Duda did his magic... Problem solved.... 2nd valve no longer drags....
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2-5-1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holeypants wrote:
2-5-1 wrote:
Doubt away homeslice.


That's gotta be the first time those three words have ever been used together in that sequence - congratulations!


I felt pretty good about it.
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