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Can't play in tune


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Blackbird
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:24 am    Post subject: Can't play in tune Reply with quote

Hi TH folk. So I have a problem playing in tune. I have done a lot of long tones with a tuner in the last 6 months to try and correct this. Also I have undertaken extra aural training too. This has helped but there's still a way to go.

Basically if I tune to C (on my Bb trumpet), I get increasingly sharp as I play higher and lower than C. But if I tune to some other note, say E below tuning C, most of the notes sit more in tune while C becomes flat. I've been working on pre-hearing notes, which I can do but I'm either pre-hearing them out of tune or it could be technique thing.

It was painfully obvious tonight while practising on my Bb bugle, tune to C and every other note above and below was about +30% sharp. As I play my long tones with the tuner to correct it, I feel like all I am doing is lipping each note down but when I play a tune nothing will have been corrected. Also I've noticed that when playing with an ensemble or trumpet section my tuning is much better, as I can adjust to the sounds around me. Practising by myself is when it's worst.
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nordlandstrompet
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tuner is only a device to check if you are in the ball park tuning wise.

If you are playing with your eyes attached to the tuner,
you are tuning with your eyes instead of tuning with your ears.

When I tune my band, I never let the players see the display on the tuner.
Reason? If they can see the display, they force to lip the note up/down on the tuning note
and when they are playing on their own, the tuning goes south or north

You also mention:
Also I've noticed that when playing with an ensemble or trumpet section my tuning is much better,
as I can adjust to the sounds around me.

This is what tuning/playing in tune is all about.
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Blackbird
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nordlandstrompet wrote:
A tuner is only a device to check if you are in the ball park tuning wise.

If you are playing with your eyes attached to the tuner,
you are tuning with your eyes instead of tuning with your ears.

When I tune my band, I never let the players see the display on the tuner.
Reason? If they can see the display, they force to lip the note up/down on the tuning note
and when they are playing on their own, the tuning goes south or north

You also mention:
Also I've noticed that when playing with an ensemble or trumpet section my tuning is much better,
as I can adjust to the sounds around me.

This is what tuning/playing in tune is all about.


I'm definitely guilty of looking at the tuner a lot. Also I really need to improve playing in tune when unaccompanied.
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ltkije1966
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tuner will let you know which way certain notes tend to go. Low C=flat, F2=sharp, etc. That's half the battle.

The rest is listening.

I went to a Charlie Geyer masterclass a few years back. He and Barbara Buttler stress intonation. It's a battle for all trumpet players. He suggested playing duets with other people. But, not other trumpet players, 'cause they tend to have the same out of tune notes and aren't good at listening. Also, as mentioned above, learn the traits of your horn and your playing.

Good luck.
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this frustrating scenario on for size: Going down the line tuning everyone. Little sharp, little flat etc... And enviably one person will just look at their horn, make no adjustments and continue to play out of tune...


Makes you want to pick up a rock !!!
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BobD
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have two suggestions. One is to get the tuning CD. I think it's at tuningcd.com. It's a recording of long tones on various chords that you play long tones with and try to eliminate any pulse that you get from playing out of tune. So it's good for developing your ear.

The other thing I do is use a tuner but I play a note without looking at the tuner. I get the note to sound full and resonant and then I look at the tuner. Most of the time the note is in tune when I look. The first note I do this on is C in the staff. That's the note I usually tune my horn on. Then I move onto other notes.
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tpter1
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing over a drone is helpful. Most folks forget that tuning is an AURAL not visual process. Using a tuner is helpful for finding tendencies on yoiur instrument or finding problems that you did not know existed, but the best thing to do is play along with others or with some type of accompaniment.

If you have a program like Garage Band (I don't know what the Windows alternative to that might be...), you can use that to your advantage by creating some loops or even by sequencing in chord progressions to go along with Schlossberg #1, for example (or for any long tone exercises you do). You might even try generating accompaniments for Cichowicz (boy... I hope I spelled that right...) flow studies. Even using them along with any mouthpiece buzzing you do will help. It's all about training yourself to listen and play in context, and learning the slotting tendencies of your particular horn.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can use a piano that is reasonably in tune, you could sit and spend some time playing single notes and listening for the harmonics. I like to use the sustain peddle and lightly sing the overtones I hear, then lightly play that note, too, to see if the piano is in tune! It's fun to be better than the piano.

Doing this helps me solidify in-tune scales and intervals in my mind.

Brian
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bugle? Just wondering if it is valved, or the most simple wrap. If the latter, then go easier on yourself, eh? If just a figure of speech, then attend to the other comments!
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dmb
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get some music books with accompaniment CD (ie, music minus one), put your tuner away, and play along using your ears.
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76strad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like you need to play french horn.

if you are going sharp, maybe you are not using enough air support, closing the throat up, and/or getting to tense in the face.

Maybe more lip slur exercises will help you with the pitch center.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retire the tuner. Your overuse of it is causing or at least exacerbating your problems. It's also probably magnifying your perception of the problem. I mean, if your intonation during ensemble playing isn't especially problematic perhaps you're beating yourself up for nothing. You do realize that if you were actually capable of keeping the needle on your tuner pegged on 12 o'clock that you'd sound like hell, right?

My best advice is to adopt a method that focuses on playing pitch centers (like Stamp) so you develop a rock solid feel for where the horn wants to play. Assuming the horn is of reasonable quality this should get you close enough to the needed pitch that you can fine tune (by lip) with minimimal effort.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's pretty obvious that your "c" is simply 30 cents flat.

I will bet a nickle that your horn has a leak. It's odd for that note to be 30 cents flat, but it could very well be if you have a leak.
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Blackbird
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tpter1 wrote:
Playing over a drone is helpful. Most folks forget that tuning is an AURAL not visual process. Using a tuner is helpful for finding tendencies on yoiur instrument or finding problems that you did not know existed, but the best thing to do is play along with others or with some type of accompaniment.

If you have a program like Garage Band (I don't know what the Windows alternative to that might be...), you can use that to your advantage by creating some loops or even by sequencing in chord progressions to go along with Schlossberg #1, for example (or for any long tone exercises you do). You might even try generating accompaniments for Cichowicz (boy... I hope I spelled that right...) flow studies. Even using them along with any mouthpiece buzzing you do will help. It's all about training yourself to listen and play in context, and learning the slotting tendencies of your particular horn.


Thanks for all the replies. Very helpful. I especially like the idea of playing with a drone or reference note. I tried this while practising today and I could tell that my ears were being worked so much more than when I looked at the tuner.


Last edited by Blackbird on Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blackbird
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

connicalman wrote:
Bugle? Just wondering if it is valved, or the most simple wrap. If the latter, then go easier on yourself, eh? If just a figure of speech, then attend to the other comments!


Yeah I'm using a simple wrap bugle, no valves. They are tough to play in tune cause the bugle gives no assistance, the slots are so wide! But I have heard people play them in tune before!
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Blackbird
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
it's pretty obvious that your "c" is simply 30 cents flat.

I will bet a nickle that your horn has a leak. It's odd for that note to be 30 cents flat, but it could very well be if you have a leak.


Its definitely not a leak the horn is a near new Schilke and same problem on other horns : bugle, flugelhorn. But you could be right about C being out of tune. I'll let you how it goes.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a few quick additional thoughts.

1. Learning to "hear" the pitch, chords and intervals is of course the most important thing and after teaching for a while I have to say it's not as easy as it seems and not everybody is as aurally equipped as others. Ear training takes practice and studying.

2. Try to find a copy of pp 288 of Dave Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" book and take a look at the intonation chart of a Bb trumpet. Study and memorize it. Most pro horns (trumpets and cornets) that I have played > $ 4000K have intonation characteristics that lie exactly on this chart. Sit down with a "good" tuner and figure out what the intonation characteristics of your horn are and chart them and then memorize them. Know your horn.

For instance for my Smith Watkins "Soloist" cornet my chart looks like

trigger low f#, G, G#, slightly trigger A
lip up B and C slightly
trigger C#, D, D#, E
lip up f#, G, slightly lip up G#, slightly lip up B, and C#,
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F, F# slightly
lip down G
trigger G# slightly, trigger A, A#, B
lip down high C
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F#
lip down G

All of this is memorized !!

3. Now that you have memorized the intonation characteristices of your horn - learn how to quickly correct those intonation issues. What notes to lip up. What notes to trigger. How bout alternate fingerings ?

3. Learn what happens to intonation when you accend to a note versus decending to the same note and how to make corrections for that.

4. Practice something simple that you know (opera arias in my case) very very sloooooooowly at first and try to place every single note on the pitch center. Try to remember and feel what it feels like to play on the pitch center.

5. Practice buzzing the mouthpiece while buzzing to the same easy piece as above. Try to buzz a line in tune 1st - then try to play it in tune. Buzz another line in tune. Then try to play it in tune. My own personal motto is "If I can't buzz it in tune - I can't play it in tune". Makes you work really hard.

6. Like other peopkle have said. Play with some recordings or accompaniment software. Music minus one and Smartmusic works great for this stuff.

7. Play duets with another person and play in a small ensemble where you have to listedn to yourself and eachother.

Hope this helps

Good Luck
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garrett901
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second (?) the Tuning CD. It works plus it's a great long tone workout...
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rufflicks
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hum yes a bugle, there may be a host of issues. Try playing the same things you practice on a friends bugle and compare the pitch to see if you have the same issues. Then try their mouthpiece on your horn and observe the pitch. You may have a horn that is not in tune with itself or a mouthpiece that has some issues. Yep I love to blame gear, it is just that bugles are not the most consistent horns. The mouthpiece may or may not be matched properly.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve alignment, remove bore obstructions and gap set are paramount. Lots of great players do this:

Quote:
trigger low f#, G, G#, slightly trigger A
lip up B and C slightly
trigger C#, D, D#, E
lip up f#, G, slightly lip up G#, slightly lip up B, and C#,
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F, F# slightly
lip down G
trigger G# slightly, trigger A, A#, B
lip down high C
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F#
lip down G

but why? Why not just set the horn up as it was designed to be and find the sweet spot gap? Why spend hours, days, years learning the tuning quirks of individual horns instead of working on more beneficial skills and playing music?
I do agree with this:
Quote:
Learning to "hear" the pitch, chords and intervals is of course the most important thing

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