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gringoloco
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim is right to offer a word of caution. This stuff can get VERY nasty.
Many times conductors down here in America Latina can be very despotic and political. I'd say it's been a generation or so since American orchestras have seen how bad a conductor can really get.
Love your union, people. It's more important than you think. They are the ones that help come to agreements about what is "legal".
Good luck to you all in the Brazileira.
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

Thanks for really following up on this!!

Thank God for the internet!!

Delmar


Last edited by alexwill on Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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pamperofirpo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gringoloco wrote:
Jim is right to offer a word of caution. This stuff can get VERY nasty.
Many times conductors down here in America Latina can be very despotic and political. I'd say it's been a generation or so since American orchestras have seen how bad a conductor can really get.
Love your union, people. It's more important than you think. They are the ones that help come to agreements about what is "legal".
Good luck to you all in the Brazileira.


Ever hear of Seattle? It makes your point even stronger.
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aleticiafb
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:42 am    Post subject: Thanks Jim Reply with quote

HI Jim,

I just loved you are helping brazilian musicians about that nightmare.

I`m musician too and a BSO musician`s wife.

Beside all the things that have been already said here, on the epsode of 14 dismissals, the conductor made a Christmas party for the whole orchestra on 20th december, shook hands with everyone looking into their eyes and saying merry christmas, and 4 days later he have dismissed 14 mussicians of those who were in the party. And he tells everybody he is a believer. Can you believe that!?

He doesn`t want a fair audition. He wants to dismis those who don`t agree in every subject with him. Sometime ago, he said for one young member of the orchestra that he doesn`t want anybody older than he in the orchestra anymore "because the olders can be very 'influencers' and have strong musical opinion".

With this jury he can justify to public-opinion that the auditions were fair! He is just using the fair jury to protect himself, you know???


On the newspapers here he use to say that "the board has contracted me with the propose of a orchestral renovation" but the president of BSO foundation told to an another newspaper that all the ideas about that are from Roberto Minczuk!
You can check this infomation out right here in this article about the bullying they are suffering. On the penultimate line of the article you can see the claim: "A proposta de avaliação partiu do regente e diretor-artístico Roberto Minczuk." it means: "The auditions was proposed by the conductor and artistic director Roberto Minczuk."
He lies full time!

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrada/880745-musicos-acusam-orquestra-sinfonica-brasileira-de-assedio-moral.shtml

And, oh-my-God!, who are this brazilians musicians that you friend knows whom told nice things about all that mass and about Roberto Minczuk?
Tell him to go to osesp website, get some emails from musicians and ask them about Minczuk! He will be surprised with the answers, for sure!!!

Thanks again for everything!

all the best.
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a friend in Brasil who knows first hand about this situation. She speaks fluent Portuguese and English. This is her take on what is going on. The battle isn't over by a long shot. She strongly supports the musicians.

""""Fight them in the courts and they have everyone paid off and the best attorneys in the city and perhaps Brazil. Some of the most influential people and businesses in Brazil sponsor the orchestra so they can always find these important people to back their cause.
Minzcuk wil reason that with the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Olympics and World Cup coming Rio needs an international top level orchestra."""""
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MrClean
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you guys know this character?

Quote:
By Mikulik Krutoj on March 8, 2011 8:04 PM

This is disgusting, to read what some "musicians" are posting here, specially again those ones that have no idea of is going on in the OSB. I really encourage my colleagues that were invited to be part of the jury to maintain their commitment and be part of the evaluation.

Half of you here have no clue of the situation in the OSB, before you start to post things you should get informed, there is a bunch of guys that are not really interested in get things improved. There is absolutely no reason to discourage the observers/jury, nobody had been cheated and the process is fully transparent, Mr. Monteiro should be ashamed of his post. Not the whole orchestra is against the evaluation, everybody knew about this process, the administration and the foundation was talking to the musicians about the process.

Do not try to say that in the US things are different, if you do not have a connection, or godfather you will never get a job in a orchestra or even a chance to be auditioned, even if you are really good. We have any Americans, excellent musicians that had to go abroad to be able to fulfil their carrier, once the old-timers are controlling the music market, people like some of you here at this forum.

There is nothing wrong in being evaluated, that happens all the time in Russia, Germany, Finland and so on, even in the US, where many of you live and know exactly what I am talking about. At the Moscow Virtuosi evaluation is part of their daily routine, if you cannot keep the level, you are out. That is the reason they are called Moscow Virtuosi, they are one of the best in the world, no matter what you Americans have to say.

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pamperofirpo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrClean wrote:
Do you guys know this character?

Quote:
By Mikulik Krutoj on March 8, 2011 8:04 PM

This is disgusting, to read what some "musicians" are posting here, specially again those ones that have no idea of is going on in the OSB. I really encourage my colleagues that were invited to be part of the jury to maintain their commitment and be part of the evaluation.

Half of you here have no clue of the situation in the OSB, before you start to post things you should get informed, there is a bunch of guys that are not really interested in get things improved. There is absolutely no reason to discourage the observers/jury, nobody had been cheated and the process is fully transparent, Mr. Monteiro should be ashamed of his post. Not the whole orchestra is against the evaluation, everybody knew about this process, the administration and the foundation was talking to the musicians about the process.

Do not try to say that in the US things are different, if you do not have a connection, or godfather you will never get a job in a orchestra or even a chance to be auditioned, even if you are really good. We have any Americans, excellent musicians that had to go abroad to be able to fulfil their carrier, once the old-timers are controlling the music market, people like some of you here at this forum.

There is nothing wrong in being evaluated, that happens all the time in Russia, Germany, Finland and so on, even in the US, where many of you live and know exactly what I am talking about. At the Moscow Virtuosi evaluation is part of their daily routine, if you cannot keep the level, you are out. That is the reason they are called Moscow Virtuosi, they are one of the best in the world, no matter what you Americans have to say.


Mikulik you can kiss my culo, you know-nothing, despotic, fascist.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.
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Albert Castillo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

double wow
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camel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

triple wow
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TrumpVoluntary
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha. This Mikulik, a certain Kupperschmiedt and others are fake names that are telling lies in order to support the people who are making a hell out of the OSB players' lives. The "Kupperschmiedt" wrote an extensive letter where he says he is hiding his identity in order to protect himself, because Rio de Janeiro is a dangerous place, where people are killed when they say what they think. We know at least that this is someone who hates Rio de Janeiro and wants to spread bad things about the city worldwide.
I think it also says a lot about who is suporting whom in this whole story.
Here is the link to a letter written by the President of the Musicians Comission in response to Mr. Minkzuk.
http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2011/03/brazil_facebook_protest_-_the.html
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TrumpVoluntary
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Below is the link to the English version of Mr. Minczuk's interview, where he confirms the musicians weren't told about the audition.
This is question # 3.
Can you explain this, Mikulik?
https://www.facebook.com/notes/eduardo-monteiro/roberto-minczuk-interview-to-the-veja-magazine-march-6-2011-translated-by-harold/199143343438406?ref=notif&notif_t=like
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tpter1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quadruple wow.
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Musicman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Music . The dissonance between Calgary Philharmonic music director Roberto Minczuk and his orchestra in Brazil won't darken the CPO musical horizon, according to CPO president and CEO Ann Lewis. Minczuk currently faces a rebellion in the ranks of the Rio de Janeiro-based Orquestra Sinfonica Brasileira over the implementation of a performance evaluation.

"Absolutely not," says Lewis, when asked whether such an evaluation could happen here. "What Roberto would be doing in Brazil would be working within their union agreement, which is a different agreement from the one we have in North America.

"There is nothing for musicians in our orchestra to be concerned about as a result of this."
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Musicman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the youth-training orchestra is going to be used to cover the subscription dates for the first half of the year while this fiasco takes place.

Quote:
Open letter to members of the OSB Youth Orchestra

By Eduardo Monteiro (Transleted by Alex Klein)

 

 

My dear students:

 

 

It is with great sadness that I have followed the repeated abuses that the administration and artistic direction of the OSB has had on his musicians.

 

Unfortunately, part of the package includes the evils and abuse also in relation to the OSB Youth Orchestra. This abuse is simply the use of the Youth Orchestra to cover the lack of OSB appearances in the season’s OSB subscription series, without the public is being properly informed as to why it will happen this way, which is an inappropriate behavior.

 

Parallel to this, I learned that so-called "monitors", musicians from OSB, will act as "ringers", assuming the first parts of OSB-YO sections in this madness by OSB administration and artistic direction.

 

It is necessary to clarify that the OSB will miss part of the 2011 season by the work and grace of mismanagement and bad artistic direction, which inexplicably decided to stop the orchestra for seven months without any justification, without any consultation with anyone else, much less the public, of which it is clear they do not give the slightest respect, having as evidence what they are doing now.

 

What worries me most in relation to OSB-YO is that your participation in this orchestra in under an eminently educational spirit.

 

The educational abuse here consists of teaching various wrong things, among which I highlight:

 

1 - One should never take the place of colleague who is or was the victim of harassment by anyone, under any condition. In this case, you are being induced to commit a serious ethical flaw, certainly in conflict with the moral training they bring from home and their schools, including colleges.

 

2 - The so-called monitors are competing to justify the abuse, because you will necessarily abandon the positions you won by audition so they can be occupied by professionals who are victims of such abuses as everyone else, but for some reason are accepting to collude with this shameful situation.

 

3 - The professional conduct these monitors display is indeed, in any event, a horrible example, unjustifiable and shameful, which I think should definitely be rejected by all of you.

 

It's hard to pick from this story what is the most outrageous or the most abusive and even illegal, but to use young players to consolidate measures worthy of Nazi leaders against professionals of recognized ability, an ability acknowledged loud and clear even by the administration itself and the artistic direction in a letter sent to all the musicians of the OSB on the same day that they forwarded the corresponding series of abuses of which I'm sure you all are aware, is a heinous evil for many reasons.

 

In the impossibility of refusal to participate in this violence by you, which I understand perfectly, know that you have my sympathy, given the constraints and possible problems that might face as a result of the irresponsibility of this administration and schizophrenic artistic direction.

 

I can only believe that it is administrative schizophrenia, if on the same day it sends to the same employees a letter congratulating the results that have just been achieved and another wanting to make them repeat their entrance auditions so they can continue to maintain their jobs, which is not a performance evaluation. Performance evaluation is another issue. If this is not schizophrenia then it is a mockery.

 

So, my dear young musicians, I wish the best for you, despite the unfortunate moment for which they are passing.

 

That everything will be resolved as quickly as possible and that the risks and damage to you will minimized as much as possible, is what I want.

 

Prof. Eduardo Monteiro

 

EM-UFRJ

School of Music, Rio de Janeiro Federal University
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Musicman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alison Balsom's statement published on the OSB Musicians Blog (http://cmusicososb.blogspot.com/):

Quote:
Alison Balsom: Protection of jobs at BSO

"From playing with the Brazilian Symphony last Autumn, my impression was of a world class ensemble - artistry and energetic music making at it's best.
Every player has something unique to add to the great atmosphere and team spirit within this orchestra. This is something quite rare in any international orchestra, and is the reason they are life affirming to listen to. Playing with these musicians was one of the highlights of the season for me - and it has to be said - even more remarkable in light of the stresses they are constantly put under away from the stage.
I wholeheartedly support this organisation and hope that they are not treated as apprentices, but as the talented professionals they all really are."

Alison Balsom Soloist 2011 season
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

I sent this post by "Mikulik Krutoj" to my Brasilian connection, and she is thinking about whom could have written this(she was floored by it.) If it is someone in the orchestra(it is possible it might not be), she has a couple of ideas. It can only be 1 of 21 people. The other 59 are absolutely opposed to what is going on. Several other Rio musicians are looking at it too.

I'll let you know if I get a response.
Delmar
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Musicman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2011/03/news_just_in_brazil_orchestra.html

Quote:
News just in: Brazil orchestra swoops on British musicians
Amid deepening confusion, with the music director insisting that no-one would be fired when all players are re-auditioned for their jobs, an inquiry was received late yesterday at the Association of British Orchestras from a caller claiming to represent the Brazil Symphony Orchestra.

The caller asked for urgent advice from the ABO how and where to notify British musicians to apply for a round of auditions at the Brazil Symphony Orchestra.

I suspect musicians in other countries are also being canvassed. Please let me know if you or your association has been approached.

I suspect also that musicians in Brazil are not being told the whole truth.
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alexwill
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim and everyone else,

I think I have figured out who Mikulik Krutoj is. I think it is Minczuk himself!!! (Of course, I can't prove it, but I think that is who Mikulik Krutoj is.)

I say that because he(Minczuk) talks about Finland and Germany in this interview!! (in Portuguese..google translation)

""""It's like saying that Finland has a tradition of samba. No use: the tradition of symphonic music is European. I want to play Beethoven as well as Germans. If mirror is not having the best vision tupiniquim."""

If it isn't Minczuk, it is still odd that both Krutoj and Minczuk mentioned these same two countries....

When you write something using a fake name, it is not very smart to say something quite similar when you use your real name!

Delmar
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MrClean
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense....
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