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Ranking the best "student trumpets"...again.


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musicmork
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Ranking the best "student trumpets"...again. Reply with quote

After a lot of new experiences with many student trumpets I thought I'd re-open the topic and see what everyone thinks.

As we can all pretty much agree the term "student" horn is a relative term. There are so many horns out there that are marketed as an entry level horn ...yet play as well as a professionally rated instrument.

I'd like to list my personal opinion of the top five (in countdown style) entry level trumpets for playability and value.

5. Holton T-602
4 F. Besson 609 Kanstul made
3. Reynolds Medalist
2. Olds Ambassador
1. Getzen 300

I would also like to say that the Reynolds Medalist may be the most underated horn in the bunch. In my opinion they play as well as any Olds Ambassador...but perhaps a liitle brighter in tone. The Holton T-602 just edged out the Yamaha YTR2335 for 5th place. I have played several of both and the Holton seems to slot easier and isn't as stuffy in the upper register.

I'd like to hear your favorites and why.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Ranking the best "student trumpets"...again. Reply with quote

musicmork wrote:
I would also like to say that the Reynolds Medalist may be the most underated horn in the bunch. In my opinion they play as well as any Olds Ambassador...but perhaps a liitle brighter in tone.

Aren't they pretty much the same horn?





It's been awhile since I've played a Medalist, so maybe they play differently. I thought they were assembled on the same line.

Then again, there might have been a period where they were not. Pre-Olds? Hmm... have to do some reading.

You're right, though. Underrated. Ambassador without the "Olds" name cache (whatever that might be worth).
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's difficult for me to list "all-time" best student trumpets. I haven't played everything. Also, I've played some specimens of a given horn and some were great, others mediocre. By which should I judge?

Recent student models...

- Kanstul 700
- Besson 609 (similar to above?)
- Getzen 390/490 or 300/400 (latter is older, former is current model)
- Yamaha 2335
- Accent brand by Eckroth music (made by JA music of Germany)

All pretty nice.

Bach TR300 can be Ok. Sometimes they're not great. Jupiter horns seem to be catching on a little, locally. I haven't played one, so I can't judge.

I've pondered about suggesting a student instrument showdown/trial thing at the local music educator's convention. It'd be nice to see all the options for all the instruments side by side to see what's what.

Might have to think about putting that together...
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They are first cousins. The Ambassador has extra bracing at the noth and south side of the valve casing and feels heavier overall. But YES...I think Olds took over Reynolds at one point. I can't be sure. I'll Google that later or go to Alan Rouses site of Contempora Corner. I currently own several Reynolds and Olds cornets and trumpets.
The trumpets and the cornets all stack up well and are so similar. I think the Reynolds Medalist cornet had a few more body styles than the Olds Ambassador. So.... Any opinion on my NEW number 1 choice..the Getzen 300?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

musicmork wrote:
So.... Any opinion on my NEW number 1 choice..the Getzen 300?

Well...

They're not as durable as the Ambassador. They both play well. In my book, durability is pretty important in a student horn - just watch they way some of them handle them. Yikes.

Nice valves, though. Shocking, I know...

On the other hand, Getzen 300's (and similar newer models) aren't all 40+ years old - which many of the better Ambassadors are (pre 1970's).

40 years is a lot of wear on a trumpet, even a tank like an Olds.

So, it seems an alright choice. Not sure it's better than the Kanstul-made ones, but they're both nice.

I guess one question - is best for who? For me, playability would be the most important. Like I said, durability - in addition to playability - should be an important factor for a student horn actually used by 4th, 5th, and 6th graders.
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musicmork
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have mentioned that I am going on their playability only.
Or, to put it another way....student horns in the hands of very carefull youngsters, teens, and adults.
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John Mock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, this does not seem like a fair comparison.

Some of the horns on the list have been available for many years and/or are no longer in production, but have been around long enough to have been played by many folks...

I for one would like to see the list of best "student" horns--or even best value priced intermediate/professional instruments--that are available to be purchased brand new today. I would think that might be more helpful to the plethora of folks who come on these forums looking for what horn to buy for their student (many of whom will buy, or rent to buy, brand new rather than trust somebody's opinion on a used instrument that has acquired some ahem "character").

For example, instead of the Kanstul 609, which I believe has already been succeeded by multiple replacement models, which current Kanstul trumpet is the best value? Which current Getzen? Jupiter? Yamaha?

What trumpet available new today will people be talking about 40 years from now?

My 2c.

John
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giakara
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want a modern horn Getzen 300 is the best but if you want a vintage babe then Olds ambasador is unbeatable .

Regards
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laurent
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stomvi Forte: a very nice horn with a very nice sound, very responsive and easy to play, very well built and finished, awsome valves...

An amazing trumpet not only for beginners!
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intrepidpooch
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a bit on a student's Yamaha YTR-2335 and it plays amazing for a student horn. It's a solid enough horn that you could definitely get away playing it on a professional level.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mock wrote:
I for one would like to see the list of best "student" horns--or even best value priced intermediate/professional instruments--that are available to be purchased brand new today. I would think that might be more helpful to the plethora of folks who come on these forums looking for what horn to buy for their student (many of whom will buy, or rent to buy, brand new rather than trust somebody's opinion on a used instrument that has acquired some ahem "character").

That's what I did on my list, for the most part.

John Mock wrote:
For example, instead of the Kanstul 609, which I believe has already been succeeded by multiple replacement models, which current Kanstul trumpet is the best value? Which current Getzen? Jupiter? Yamaha?

The 609 was a Besson made by Kanstul. It was available until just about two years ago (when Kanstul stopped making Bessons, perhaps?). I have no idea what the current Besson student model is or who makes it. The current model sold by Kanstul itself, is the 700 (which I listed). It hasn't been succeeded by anything.

The current Getzen student line trumpets are the 390 and 490 - which I also listed.
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Albuquerque Duke
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Getzen 590S Capri from 1970 is considered a step-up intermediate horn and is fantastic. I like it better than any of the several Olds Ambassadors I have owned/played, including LA and Fullerton models.

p.s. I like it better than my Special too.


Last edited by Albuquerque Duke on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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silverhorace
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worthy of consideration is the new Blessing 1270. Word on the street is that this horn has a bell that is made on the Benge 3X mandrill (Blessing used to make bells for Benge once upon a time). Very responsive trumpet and excellent build quality.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Reynolds medalist has the same tubing and geometry from bell to leadpipe to slides and minor braces on the tuning slides as the Olds Ambassador. The Reynolds though has the high end bell to leadpipe bracing, nickel accents and water keys as the high end models from Olds. SO they have the blessing style water key saddles and the wing strut bracing seen on all the Pro-models from Olds.

So given the choice I would say that the Reynolds is a tad better both in cosmetics and playing then the Ambassador due in part to the bracing and nickel. People laughed at me when I said my first Reynolds Medalist sounded just like a Mendez model trumpet until a few people played it and then they agreed.

I have two of them one wears am Accusonic leadpipe one wears a OEM leadpipe. I have played around with them a lot and have tried now 25, 25-0,7,43 and Acccusonic leadpipe. I am getting ready to try one of my Calichio pipe on one as well. Why because I love experimenting.

If someone is after an Olds Recording sound on the cheap a Reynolds Medalist is the easiest way to go about it. Why??? You do not need to modify the bracing at all like you do on the Fullerton Ambassadors all you need to do is change the leadpipe.

The valve assembly is totaly different on the Renolds. The pistons are .001 smaller then the Olds valves and they use the Contempra Brass Valve guides and spring system not the Olds guide and spring system.

I like mine best with Bach 43 and 7 leadpipes in regular leadpipes but the 25-0 works decent too for those that like more secure feeling and resistance up front. The Accusonic is fantastic but pricey!! I think the 43 is best for those that want a brighter horn that can still do dark but the 7 pipe is better for those that want to add some darkness to the horn with out adding more brightness as well.

Kanstul can make main tuning slides in .462,.464, .468 and .470 I have been playing around with this some. I like the .470 it defines the slots better I think, open up the blow a lot and makes for a more solid core. I do not list bore changes as such on horns I am building if I think a .464 slide works best that is what goes on that horn.... I think people would do better asking how a horn blows then asking for bore sizes because the two do not always match!
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John Mock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been told by others that the Kanstul/French Besson 609 was succeeded by the Kanstul/French Besson 800, and that a number of the Kanstul horns in the 600 and 700 series were actually made as much as 20 or 25 years ago.

The 800 was evidently discontinued a couple years ago. Even at that time, I did not see 609's available new, but perhaps I didn't know where to look. The 800's were on a blow-out sale at the time, so had been around awhile somewhere themselves.

I've already learned that just because one buys a new horn does not mean it is last year's horn--at some dealers that brand new horn can easily be 10 years old.

I know where there's a new Holton T-101 Symphony trumpet, older than that.

I know at least one dealer who has brand new UMI/Benge 3X+ trumpets that were actually delivered to them in 1999. Some of them are fine horns available at blowout prices.

Here's a link saying the Kanstul/Besson 609 and related lines were discontinued in 1998, part way down the page under "Enter Kanstul":

http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/TheBessonLoyalist.htm#_Toc130023204

John
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Octiceps
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

intrepidpooch wrote:
I played a bit on a student's Yamaha YTR-2335 and it plays amazing for a student horn. It's a solid enough horn that you could definitely get away playing it on a professional level.


I concur. I've tested my 2335 against some so-called "pro horns" that cost 5 times as much and it played just as well, if not better.
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laurent
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Octiceps wrote:
intrepidpooch wrote:
I played a bit on a student's Yamaha YTR-2335 and it plays amazing for a student horn. It's a solid enough horn that you could definitely get away playing it on a professional level.


I concur. I've tested my 2335 against some so-called "pro horns" that cost 5 times as much and it played just as well, if not better.


Strange! I play tested one two years ago, and didn't like it at all: in my opinion its sound was tight and poor...
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mock wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been told by others that the Kanstul/French Besson 609 was succeeded by the Kanstul/French Besson 800, and that a number of the Kanstul horns in the 600 and 700 series were actually made as much as 20 or 25 years ago.

The 800 was evidently discontinued a couple years ago. Even at that time, I did not see 609's available new, but perhaps I didn't know where to look. The 800's were on a blow-out sale at the time, so had been around awhile somewhere themselves.

I don't know when Kanstul stopped making horns for the Besson brand. That's not knowledge I'm privy to.

As you said, just because it's new doesn't mean it was made recently. I don't know of a serial number to year list for Besson. There might be one. Time to google...

In the meantime...

The Besson 609 was a student horn made by Kanstul.
The Besson 709 was an "intermediate" horn made by Kanstul. It's quite nice. I've got one that I got "new" two years ago.
The Besson 800 was an "intermediate" horn often made by Kanstul. I don't know if it succeeded the 709, since they were available concurrently a few years ago. I always had the impression that the 800 was another step up from the 709, or perhaps a "nicer" alternative, similar to the Yamaha 6335 and the Xeno line - both are available and both are "professional" horns.

I could have bought a damaged 800 for a incredible steal but passed. The online retailer that I got my 709 from didn't even put packaging with the horn, just the horn in a small box. I guess I didn't want to deal with that again. I'm STILL kicking myself about passing on that (though I have no real need for yet another horn). Argh!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still see a lot of Ambassadors in my repair shop; that by itself is some endorsement for a horn that's been out of production for 30+ years and usually passes through the hands of dozens of middle schoolers in that time. And after all the abuse they see, they still play great.
I'm fond of the King 600-601/Conn 22B-23B. They're competent players but even better, they're completely bombproof. I would pick one of these UMI Conns over an old Director any day.
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BSTRUMPET85
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

king 601
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