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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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 Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | Valve alignment, remove bore obstructions and gap set are paramount. Lots of great players do this:
| Quote: | | (big old chart of intonation fixes) |
but why? Why not just set the horn up as it was designed to be and find the sweet spot gap? Why spend hours, days, years learning the tuning quirks of individual horns instead of working on more beneficial skills and playing music?
I do agree with this:
| Quote: | | Learning to "hear" the pitch, chords and intervals is of course the most important thing |
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Yup.
Intonation is relative. Unless you're playing in the basement by yourself with a tuner all the time, and not with an ensemble, you need to learn to listen and hear. If my elementary band students can grasp a bit of it, it can't be that hard.
Sure, there are some notes that require adjustment (C# and D come to mind). However, most notes can be played in tune if you find those resonant "grooves" for each pitch. Usually, they're found slightly lower than some people play.
Also, making a big chart is fine, but it's all relative. If you're playing the 3rd of a chord in an ensemble, your pitch on that note might need to be a bit lower. What if the orchestra plays a bit high on the pitch? What about toward the end of a wind band concert that the pitch also tends to go up (sometimes)? Then you have to compensate for all that within that system.
If you know where your notes are in tune through practice and listening, then you can make those adjustment much easier since you're just used to always playing in tune by listening rather than through following some system. That's a lot easier to just do than memorizing a bunch of minute adjustment, that you then need to make further adjustment to.
Actually, I think we're basically talking about the same thing, it's just one way is a micro-managing system with formulas and charts to memorize and the other is more macro-oriented and intuitive - and universally applicable.
I mean, I know where my low C# and D are on my horns. My finger is used to sliding them out a certain distance for each note. I often slide my first valve slide out on high "A"'s especially when I'm in the middle of the chord. I do these because I know that's where they're in tune usually in a given situation. I just haven't measured it and systematized it.
In other words, just listen, play in tune and the rest takes care of itself.
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Flattergrub
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Joined: 01 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | Valve alignment, remove bore obstructions and gap set are paramount. Lots of great players do this:
Isn't that nice. Unfortunately while perhaps solving some intonation issues the above do not change the actual overall physics of horn design.
| Quote: | trigger low f#, G, G#, slightly trigger A
lip up B and C slightly
trigger C#, D, D#, E
lip up f#, G, slightly lip up G#, slightly lip up B, and C#,
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F, F# slightly
lip down G
trigger G# slightly, trigger A, A#, B
lip down high C
lip up D, D#, E
trigger F#
lip down G |
but why? Why not just set the horn up as it was designed to be and find the sweet spot gap?
The horn IS set up as it was designed to be. Adjusting the gap does not alter basic physics 101. Take a look at Hickman's chart that I referenced earlier in the thread.
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dmb
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Fgrub, do you seriously need to make slide adjustments to all those notes you listed on that chart to play in tune?
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Dan Burton
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Pops
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Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Often it is excess tension.
This is merely a habit from working on range when you were younger.
You work on being tenser and so it becomes a habit.
Work on relaxing the face, trying a slightly lower tongue position and let breath support help more.
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Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
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dmb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: | | Hey Fgrub, do you seriously need to make slide adjustments to all those notes you listed on that chart to play in tune? |
Still waiting for the answer to this.
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Flattergrub
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| dmb wrote: | | Hey Fgrub, do you seriously need to make slide adjustments to all those notes you listed on that chart to play in tune? |
Dan - When I first received Hickman's "Trumpet Pedagogy" book and found the intonation chart on pp 288 I raced down to our local university and sat in front of their top end Peterson tuner for hours charting my cornet. Played up and down to the pitches gradually and also in different intervals until I felt that I had a pretty good and repeatable handle on where the pitch centers were on my horn. When I got done charting I compared my chart to the one in Hickman's book and low and behold mine layed right on top of Hickman's. I was pretty amazed. I've talked to a few univ. trumpet profs. since then and it didn't surprise them at all. Horn physics 
I find that I try to put this new knowledge to use a lot more when practicing alone, without any accmp. and recording myself for review later. Seems tougher (at least for me) to play "in tune" while playing alone then when playing in an ensemble where we can hear other tones to reference against. Charting the horn (and reading) has made me MUCH more aware of my own intonation and intonation issues in general.
To answer your question - while in theory I should/would trigger all the notes that I listed in my chart, in actual practice I usually trigger the low F#, G, maybe G# a tad if I feel ambitious , C #, D, D#, E and A, Bb, B above the staff. I'll also triggger (or not trigger) a note to fit into a chord if playing within an ensemble. Please note that I am initially tuning the horn to a 3rd space C. The other notes that could probably be triggered are much closer to the pitch center and I usually just lip those down slightly whether conciously or not.
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Last edited by Flattergrub on Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dmb
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the reply. I do understand that trumpets do have notes that are inherently sharp or flat, some more than others. Having said that, I believe most players with a good ear and lots of practice should only have to manually (triggers or alt fingering) adjust very few notes.
While I am playing my Kanstul that I've had for several years, I know I subconsciously adjust notes to where my ear tells me to. This becomes very obvious when I play my son's Destino 5*. The little 'tweaks' I do with my lips don't work the same, though I'm sure with some time on his horn I would automatically figure it out.
I do know that some need to use 1st or 3rd slides or alt fingerings or a combination of these to overcome intonation issues on several notes throughout a 2 1/2 octave scale. I personally only use triggers for low C# and D and, depentant on circumstance, alt fingering for high A, 3rd valve instead of 1 and 2.
As I was growing up and learning about all things trumpet and music, no one ever told me that there were so many notes that were inherently 'out of tune'. I have always been able to play in tune (atleast I have always been told that by my instructors through the years), so I was a bit shocked to find out about all these 'trouble' notes.
Thanks again for the clarification. No more time to chat as I am on my way to go see Allen Vizzutti.
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