Closest Modern Horn To The Martin Committee?

zackh411

What production model horn, if any, comes closest to replicating the sound of the Martin Committee?
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Retlaw · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:01 am Post subject:

I sold a seriously good Martin Committee LB to get my Schilke S32.... no regrets whatsoever... of course Mr Schilke was the committee of one.....

Walter
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etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6177

Isn't it the 8310z(s) - the one that you are playing?

giakara · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:23 am Post subject:

Lawler C7.

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yourbrass · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject:

I can't say I ever played any horn that replicated the sound of a Committee, especially the medium-bore model. I remember one that came into the shop many years ago - it looked like someone stomped on it. It was a terrific horn, I could see it as a lead tpt. type of instrument.
The Holton/LeBlanc Martin was sort of in the same ballpark, good enough for Wallace Roney.

stephan · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject:

I read some posts about the comparison between the c7 and the committee. Much of them said that they were different animals.
But all these posts were written before lawler replaced the 3 bell by the M3 bell.
Since, no one did the comparison between the Committee and the C7 with the M3 bell.
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onlyson · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject:

I have been down this road. It started with the 8310Z. I got a used C7 from Roy on spec and put it up against the Z. I think this particular C7 was more of a lead configuration, and I ended up sending it back. I then went the Olds Recording route and had one refurbed by Charlie Melk, but it still was missing something.
I then traveled nearly 200 miles to visit various C7 owners. One even lent his C7 Deluxe prototype and a Martin Committee Deluxe. I had them both for nearly 5 months. The C7 was a very good horn, but that Committee was special. Before I learned that the owner was willing to part with the Committee, I had ordered a C7. I thought I wanted a large bore because the blow on the C7 was kinda tight. I was mistaken. The horn I eventually received was a very dark sounding horn. Too dark actually. But if that's what you're looking for, it absolutely nailed the Chris Botti sound.
By this time I had sold the Z because the blow was too tight. I then sold the Recording to purchase a Sima. The Sima was my main horn for the last couple of years. It has a beautiful sound, but still wasn't quite right for me. I sold it to purchase a Yamaha 9335NY and have been very happy since....until two weeks ago when somebody put their Committee Deluxe up for sale in the marketplace here. And when nobody jumped on it after 3 days, I knew it was a sign from the almighty that it should be mine. And it is! I'm now on a safari to find the perfect mouthpiece for it. Oh wait, a package just arrived with one. Gotta go....

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

I think it is important to make clear if you mean sounds like one to the audience versus playing like one behind the bell.

First I do not think anyone today is making anything that includes all the design elements that made the Martin Com. horn what it is. Some people have gotten close with some bell profiles but no one has gone all the way. While I like two piece bells and one piece hand hammered bells I last I checked I thought the Lawler was using a one piece seamless bell which I haqve yet to find one that replicates the way a good two piece or one piece hand hammered bell plays and responds. I have not played on any of Lawlers trumpets not a one so I can not comment on them from that stand point.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but does not the Lawler trumpets use Besson style leadpipe lengths and taper's? The Martin Com horn had a very short fast tapering leadpipe then it had the longest straight piece of tube I have ever seen on a reversed leadpipe set up.

I think you have to get the bell construction method close the profiles close and the leadpipe set up close to get the entire package. Calicchio used to offer a 4 leadpipe that was designed to give loose slotting inthe material it said like the Martin Com" horn. Of course that has been removed from the sight as has leadpipe number one. If you did not know better you would think Dominic was odd and skipped the number's 1 and 4 for some superstitious but in fact they had pipes and number in the order he created them. I do not think anyone else has made a leadpipe with the idea of replicating the slotting of the Martin. Likewise it seems like most people are two busy pumping out Bach 180S37 clones to actually bring back a trumpet that would sell like hot cakes on Sunday. I am pretty sure if Kanstul, Getzen or Blessing made such a beast and was faithful to the original design they would sell all they made.
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ChopsGone · Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793

adagiotrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 903

Marcinkiewicz makes, or at least made a Coppola Model that was supposedly based on Johny Coppola's old Martin Committee large bore.

Capt.Kirk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792

My point was that no one has really gone all out no one has done for instance what Zig does and make a darn good copy of it they way he has coppied some famous models. You see a leadpipe here and a bell their that might sound similar but no real well thought out clone or total package.

My Holton Collegiate which is a clone of that years Al Hirt Special has a bell much like the Martin in it's profile yet it does not sound anything like a Martin Com not at all. So it takes more then just a similar bell profile.

Some horns have bell profiles more like a Bach 72 or 37 and yet they are dark and lack brilliance but they do not play anything at all like a Martin. It is not enough to have one piece of the puzzel I truly think it is an all or none situation. My pre-Selmer Super Aristocrat is a nice dark sounding horn and some people before me have called them a poor mans Martin but I would never call them that. They sound fantastic and I like them all the way around but it is not even close to being a Martin.

It is not a matter of Mr. Schilke having a magical touch it is a matter of the market not making it clear to OEM's that their are people that might like something other then hords of 180/37 Bach Strad Clones. Kanstul,Getzen,Schilke,Conn,Selmer,Bach,Bundy,King,Holton none of them build a clone of the MArtin Com. horn.

I am sure any of the above OEM if they wanted to make one and where willing to do it right could. No one seems to want to though. Kanstul by far has the most non-Bach sounding horns in his inventory no one else has the diverse sound concepts and horn as Kanstul. Some people will tell you it is just another Besson style horn but I do not agree with that idea at all!!!

@ ChopesGone what happened to the leadpipe No1 and No4???? They used to be on the web page not more then 12 months ago. I got a copy of it on my computer. SO what happened to the mention of them. Dominic did not develop the 2 first and he did not skip the number 4 and make the 5 pipe. Just like Bach had more bell profiles then what Selmer took with them. So what happened to the ones Getzen bought that Selmer left behind when they moved?

I am pretty sure it is not going to happen unless the entire American grade school Band Directors as a unit decided they liked the sound of the Martin Committee better and wanted their trumpet players to have some. Then everyone that makes a Bach Clone with seems to be everyone that sells a trumpet would immediately start snatching up good used models to use as a basis to reverse engineer from. Short of that I would not hold my breath on it. Maybe someone nut will come along and have Zig build him such a horn to sell under his own label but again I would not hold my breath!

In spite of not liking Kanstul valve assembly I do think we are lucky to have Kanstul because they have done more to keep more now considered obsolete sound concepts alive by cloning them and selling them. We are fantastically lucky to have them other wise the Benge sound concept and the Conn Constellation would both be relegated to the few good used horns that are floating around. We would not have a source for Olds Parts either. I have tremendous respect for that portion of the companies mission statement or marketing idea etc... Their are other's too like the Besson Meha large bore and other's! No one else does models like those!

I wanted to add that it is not enough to have say just a bell or just a leadpipe. I have an Olds Opera bell but I already know that just having the bell does not an Olds Opera make. If I am lucky I will get maybe 50%-65% of the sound of the Olds Opera. Really to do it right I would like to have have had the bell, leadpipe and the main tuning slide at the very least. The more you want to sound like the real deal the more you have to get close to the original. FOr instance I have been told by more then one hard core Martin collector that the valves where fitted fairly lose as in over lapped by Mr. Schilkes standards and that a Martin with a nice tight refit be it by Anderson or Dr. Valve does not play or sound right. Then you have the difference in the various mass of the valve and piston assembly from brand to brand. It makes a huge difference in how they play and respond. If you do not get the mass right in that area you might get close but never really get their! This is why some people have had good luck putting a Martin bell, leadpipe and tuning slide on a different brand of valve assembly and some have had not so good results doing it. The more parts you have though that are identical the closer you get. That is why I said no one has really gone all out with an attempt to seriously do a money be darned clone.

Also I do not think any or your modern large mass production OEM of brass instrument have a bell remotely close to the Martin in their Bb line up. Some have cornet or bugle bells that come very close but have a larger diameter bell and obviously shorter bell stem. I have already eye balled some bells from Cornets and Bugles that would make for interesting Bb trumpet bells.
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Brian Moon · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:24 pm Post subject:

jimmysmith76 owns the first one by John Davidson. You could ask him about it.
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adagiotrumpet · Heavyweight Member Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 903

HornnOOb · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject:

How's this for a Committee?

Doc Severinsen, Byron Autrey and Zig Kanstul. They collaborated on the design and manufactur of the Destino 5 & 3 Star Trumpets.
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Adam V · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject:

dqjazz · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Jun 2007 Posts: 236

I played a 1946 Martin Committe for almost 2 years, and while I loved the sound it was a bit of a dog to play for intonation, and the loose slotting thing that they have just made it more difficult than modern horns. I did play lead on it a few times and thought it sounded better than a typical lead horn as there was more sound and less sizzle, but that's what I like in a sound. I did have a 8310Z for about 6 months and felt it was too bright but did play very well.

I recently got Lawler C7 ML with M3R bell as I was more than curious, and I think it is the closest you'll get to a Martin sound. the sound colours available on the C7 are amazing you can sound mellow in all registers and you can push and sound bright in all registers, so I find it very versatile. It slots better and has better intonation than the Martin. I think the fact that it is hand built is also why it's better than a production horn. The bell is a 2 piece bell as is the Martin and the new bell configuration looks exactly the same as my Martin when sitting next to each other.

Overall, I don't think you'll find anything than replicates the vintage Martin's exactly. There will always be a bit of give and take somehwere. Schilke horns don't sound like a Committee and given all the documentation about Renold Schilke's input into the Committee I would of thought Schilke horns would sound more like a Committee but they don't.

Good luck in your search, don't be put off by a dark sounding horn. I found coming from Bach's, Conn 38B, 8310Z to a dark sounding horn took a while to get used to but when you do get used to it there is just more sound options available as all trumpets can sound bright when pushed but not all can sound dark and loud volumes either.

Roberts-K · Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject:

Retlaw · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 2:22 am Post subject:

I mentioned Schilke because of the similarities ... reverse lead ...big bell ... step bore.....on some models. If you want a Committee get one ... there is nothing on the market to directly replace them. Forget clone attempts and get the real thing. They are unique ....and great... however if you want a similar modern horn the Schilke has a family feel. I tried my S32 next to my LB Committee and actually preferred the S32 sound.... I was really surprised as I loved the Committee. These days I am a little happier playing a modern horn....but the Olds Recording is not going anywhere.

Walter
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fredo · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:14 am Post subject:

I had a C7S (large bore) with the old #3 bell (not the M bell) and the sound what too far from the committee sound. (too tubby)

I'm curious to see (and ear !) what a Calicchio 3 Bell, Ml with a reversed 5 M bore leadpipe and a conical tuning slide expended from 453 to 460.

My 3/9 Ultra is too open for me, John Duda send me a 7 pipe and i love it.

I've ordered a standard 3/7 Ml and will ask John if he can make me the M bore 5 reversed pipe + conical tuning slide, to send with my new 3/7.

If John accept to do it and if this combination works good for me or for my friend Eric LE LANN (committee player old and last ones, http://www.ericlelann.com/ http://www.myspace.com/137797511) , i will ask John to rebuilt my 3/9 U with those specs and post a review on it.
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EdMann · Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:30 am Post subject:

I did a play test with a friend who owns a studio with the goal of seeing if my 8310Z could do the dark thing like his old large bore Handcraft Committee (which he doesn't have anymore but has loads of tape and years of playing), his early Elk Bach 37, my med. bore '49 Committee and a reverse pipe 37 he's had since high school. The mpc's were my Bach 3 14 drill and his NY3 with an ELEVEN drill.

On virtually every pass, we couldn't get the Z to sound as smokey as either Committee (the med bore was darker, quite frankly, than the large bore Handcraft), or even as dark as the two Bachs, which he was able to darken like a cloak. The Z was plenty warm sounding, but had a thinner tone, which printed well. We both can see why these new Yamahas end up in the studios, but not late-night, bar's-about-to-close dark venues where the patrons have permanent bar stool butt scars.

In another test of wills, a certain lead player in Chicago area tried the Bach 3 14 drill against the Yamaha Shew Jazz (3Cish) piece on the Z horn and he was getting just as dark on that with the Shew piece as the cavernous Bach 3! All about cup volume and approach. I will try a Lawler one day; I do love that cloak of darkness but the best combo for me was my Bach 3 piece on the medium bore Committee. The Dark Horse!

ed